With fava beans and a nice chianti?User13866 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:54 pmWonder if i should watch my back if having run out of food i am ever stuck with thepea in some emergency situation.NotMe wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:11 pmhttps://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN12_63.html
Here the Buddha does not truly disparage the eating of human flesh - but rather says view all food as such. <grin while grimacing>
Metta
Although knowing that nothing will be wasted is a meagre comfort.
First precept
-
- Posts: 10262
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
- Location: Andromeda looks nice
Re: First precept
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: First precept
It’s about destruction, you keep going to the word killing. So Buddhist monks on alms in Buddhist villages is a thing correct?DNS wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:15 pmIt's about intention, but anyway, this is not the great vegetarian debate. This is about the First Precept which is about not killing. Even buddhists who eat meat, do not kill the animal and then eat it.The beetle that was killed for the cucumber salad you eat or the plant that ingests all the nutrients that it’s given.
It's not just the "staunch conservative monastic religious view" that you are challenging. You are opposing Theravada Buddha-Dhamma, Mahayana Buddha-Dharma, and Vajrayana Buddha-Dharma; the entirety of Buddhism.
The monastics do not per say go on alms in Muslim or other religious areas correct?
Monks eat fish, beef, chicken, etc.... eggs whatever is placed in the bowl, correct?
Where do these Buddhist lay supporters get these items, most specifically before the grocery store and global shipping was a thing?
Yes, and we have had this conversation before. I am not Buddhist, I am a dhamma practitioner. I am not religious. I don’t give importance to belief only wisdom.
Re: First precept
I am quite "toke"en by the offer of chianti, but that is another precept to be argued endlessly.
choke choke
Metta
edit to add: Dr prescription! Medicine! <wavy gravy grin>
edit to edit: " I am not Buddhist, I am a dhamma practitioner." broaches another precept, No?
Re: First precept
No.NotMe wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:34 pmI am quite "toke"en by the offer of chianti, but that is another precept to be argued endlessly.
choke choke
Metta
edit to add: Dr prescription! Medicine! <wavy gravy grin>
edit to edit: " I am not Buddhist, I am a dhamma practitioner." broaches another precept, No?
Re: First precept
What word is closest to what we think the Buddha used (i.e. the word in the Pali suttas) and why do you think it is more suitably translated as "destruction" than "killing"?thepea wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:30 pmIt’s about destruction, you keep going to the word killing.DNS wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:15 pmIt's about intention, but anyway, this is not the great vegetarian debate. This is about the First Precept which is about not killing. Even buddhists who eat meat, do not kill the animal and then eat it.The beetle that was killed for the cucumber salad you eat or the plant that ingests all the nutrients that it’s given.
It's not just the "staunch conservative monastic religious view" that you are challenging. You are opposing Theravada Buddha-Dhamma, Mahayana Buddha-Dharma, and Vajrayana Buddha-Dharma; the entirety of Buddhism.
Re: First precept
bhikku Bhodhi uses killing and Thanisarro uses destruction.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:24 pmWhat word is closest to what we think the Buddha used (i.e. the word in the Pali suttas) and why do you think it is more suitably translated as "destruction" than "killing"?thepea wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:30 pmIt’s about destruction, you keep going to the word killing.DNS wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:15 pm
It's about intention, but anyway, this is not the great vegetarian debate. This is about the First Precept which is about not killing. Even buddhists who eat meat, do not kill the animal and then eat it.
It's not just the "staunch conservative monastic religious view" that you are challenging. You are opposing Theravada Buddha-Dhamma, Mahayana Buddha-Dharma, and Vajrayana Buddha-Dharma; the entirety of Buddhism.
I find the use of killing to be towards the extreme side, like veganism not using animal products at all including manure to grow vegetables. To me, this seem extremist and off balance of middle.
Eating life, yet trying to avoid killing seems extreme and impossible, having others kill for your food. It just makes no sense.
Destruction(mutilation and waste) seems in alignment with nature and more harmonious to circle of life.
Re: First precept
Quote please. He uses taking of life here:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN9_63.html
I have never heard or read him refer to the precept as mere 'destruction', please prove me wrong. I know that is *not* the only way he describes it.
Metta
- DNS
- Site Admin
- Posts: 17229
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
- Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
- Contact:
Re: First precept
There are some translators who use the term destroying as in:thepea wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:29 pm bhikku Bhodhi uses killing and Thanisarro uses destruction.
I find the use of killing to be towards the extreme side, like veganism not using animal products at all including manure to grow vegetables. To me, this seem extremist and off balance of middle.
Eating life, yet trying to avoid killing seems extreme and impossible, having others kill for your food. It just makes no sense.
Destruction(mutilation and waste) seems in alignment with nature and more harmonious to circle of life.
I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.
But I guarantee you they are referring to killing. They just chose to use the term destroying. You can even ask them. I guarantee you they will say (the ones still alive) it refers to no killing any living being (humans and yes, animals).
de·stroy
/dəˈstroi/
Learn to pronounce
verb
put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it.
"the room had been destroyed by fire"
Definition of destroy
transitive verb
1: to ruin the structure, organic existence, or condition of
destroyed the files
also : to ruin as if by tearing to shreds
their reputation was destroyed
a disease that destroys the body's ability to fight off illness
… destroyed any hope of a return to past crackdowns …
— George Brock
2a: to put out of existence : KILL
destroy an injured horse
Re: First precept
Nobody is eating "life" here. When life ends the life-force is cut off, the heat is cut off, the body is like a tree log. The eating is of meat.
"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered.
I can cut off a lump of flesh from my body and eat it.41. Ere long, alas! this body will lie upon the earth, unheeded and lifeless, like a useless log.
Am i eating life or am i eating meat? I am eating meat.
Did i destroy life of a being? No i didn't.
Why not? Because the life force wasn't cut off.
Can a being deprive a being of life multiple times? No, it can only be deprived of life once. Having been deprived the body is like a useless log.
Suppose i find a carcass in the forest and eat it.
Am i eating life or am i eating meat? I am eating meat.
Did i kill a being? No i didn't.
Why not? Because the carcass was already deprived of life when i found it there, heedless, like a log.
Suppose a man deprives me of life such that my body is made like a useless log and feeds the body to his children.
Did his children eat life or did they eat meat? They ate meat.
Who destroyed life, the man or the children? The man.
Who will be blamed for killing? The man.
Will children be blamed for the destruction of life? No they won't.
Are children blameless in regards to the taking of life? Yes they are blameless.
Re: First precept
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... asila.htmlNotMe wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:15 pmQuote please. He uses taking of life here:
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN9_63.html
I have never heard or read him refer to the precept as mere 'destruction', please prove me wrong. I know that is *not* the only way he describes it.
Metta
Re: First precept
I meant those particular children.
It's like if a person kills another and feeds the remains to the pigs.
Then he can't argue in court that pigs did the killing. That would be absurd. He did the killing and pigs ate the meat.
Re: First precept
Thank you for clarifying. My bad! Gratitude.
Metta
Re: First precept
So for me it seems to fit more in the sense of not deleting or destroying the existence of day the Buffalo. All is provided fir us to use to sustain life. But if we destroy a species then it’s gone forever. No more Buffalo to harvest etc... so we should live with the earth in harmony like the native tribes did.DNS wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:29 pmThere are some translators who use the term destroying as in:thepea wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:29 pm bhikku Bhodhi uses killing and Thanisarro uses destruction.
I find the use of killing to be towards the extreme side, like veganism not using animal products at all including manure to grow vegetables. To me, this seem extremist and off balance of middle.
Eating life, yet trying to avoid killing seems extreme and impossible, having others kill for your food. It just makes no sense.
Destruction(mutilation and waste) seems in alignment with nature and more harmonious to circle of life.
I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.
But I guarantee you they are referring to killing. They just chose to use the term destroying. You can even ask them. I guarantee you they will say (the ones still alive) it refers to no killing any living being (humans and yes, animals).
de·stroy
/dəˈstroi/
Learn to pronounce
verb
put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it.
"the room had been destroyed by fire"
Definition of destroy
transitive verb
1: to ruin the structure, organic existence, or condition of
destroyed the files
also : to ruin as if by tearing to shreds
their reputation was destroyed
a disease that destroys the body's ability to fight off illness
… destroyed any hope of a return to past crackdowns …
— George Brock
2a: to put out of existence : KILL
destroy an injured horse
I do see the usage of both for formal training as monastic or retreatists seeking jhana. But... I find it extremist for the layman with social responsibilities.