First precept

[thepea]

What are you talking about? the beast will stop breathing eventually as a direct cause of your action. breathing will resume in a new rebirth, but that is beside the point. you caused the stop of breathe in thier present existence

Meh, that becomes a thought process of guilt or acceptance.
There is no destruction. Otherwise we could kill our selves and be free from suffering.

you actually can kill yourself and be free from suffering. there are stories of ppl who kill themselves and become arahants. as for whatever you mean by there is no destruction. we seem to be on a completely different page and this is just frivilous idle chatter at this point

Post the story, so we can examine it.
It most likely verifies that the precept is not opposed to killing

[DNS]

Meh, that becomes a thought process of guilt or acceptance.
There is no destruction. Otherwise we could kill our selves and be free from suffering.

you actually can kill yourself and be free from suffering. there are stories of ppl who kill themselves and become arahants. as for whatever you mean by there is no destruction. we seem to be on a completely different page and this is just frivilous idle chatter at this point

Post the story, so we can examine it.
It most likely verifies that the precept is not opposed to killing

Incorrect again. He's referring to those monks "who took the knife" but were not yet arahants. They became arahants as they were in the process of dying.

Continually trying to obfuscate the First Precept with words like mutilation, with your argumentum ad nauseum doesn't make your notions true. Your interpretation is still false and adhammic. The words of the First Precept are:

Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami.
I undertake the precept to abstain from taking life.

The part about mutilation is where Bhikkhu Bodhi refers to the spirit of the teaching:

"Though the precept's wording prohibits the killing of living beings, in terms of its underlying purpose it can also be understood to prohibit injuring, maiming, and torturing as well."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el282.html

[santa100]

I’ve never once told anyone not to speak their mind and challenge anything that I post. I simply ask that it’s done politely without all the hysteria like I’m burning down the wat.
This is my truth, and I’m not telling lies. I kill, a lot.
But not for sport as you mentioned. I kill for to protect my property( be that from attack or to sustain the body).
But as mentioned if jhana is the goal I refrain from these activities and put out the beggars bowl and accept that which is offered.
Destruction(mutilation) is the first precept. This is unwholesome.

No, you're not burning down the wat, you are slandering the Buddha and His Teaching. I know you kill a lot. That part's already clear. But my question remains: if you, a human being, who never seems to parse other people's objection to your messed up claim about being a Sotapanna who kills, how do you know that the other animals in the lower strata give their permission for you to kill them? If you consciously deprive other beings of their lives: bedbugs, mice, fish, and many more, for sport or for property protection, that's breaking the first precept. You wouldn't be called a decent human being, let alone a Sotapanna.

[thepea]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... asila.html
Here it says destroying. Destroying is mutilation.

[DNS]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... asila.html
Here it says destroying. Destroying is mutilation.

It says:
"I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures."

That is just another way of saying killing. It's about killing living beings not mutilation (alone).

See further down, the rest on that page from the Suttas:

"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from taking life. . . .

[thepea]

I’ve never once told anyone not to speak their mind and challenge anything that I post. I simply ask that it’s done politely without all the hysteria like I’m burning down the wat.
This is my truth, and I’m not telling lies. I kill, a lot.
But not for sport as you mentioned. I kill for to protect my property( be that from attack or to sustain the body).
But as mentioned if jhana is the goal I refrain from these activities and put out the beggars bowl and accept that which is offered.
Destruction(mutilation) is the first precept. This is unwholesome.

No, you're not burning down the wat, you are slandering the Buddha and His Teaching. I know you kill a lot. That part's already clear. But my question remains: if you, a human being, who never seems to parse other people's objection to your messed up claim about being a Sotapanna who kills, how do you know that the other animals in the lower strata give their permission for you to kill them? If you consciously deprive other beings of their lives: bedbugs, mice, fish, and many more, for sport or for property protection, that's breaking the first precept. You wouldn't be called a decent human being, let alone a Sotapanna.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... asila.html
It doesn’t say kill, it says destroy.
I’m not slandering anything. I’m studying the definitions and wording and basing my wisdom of experience to see which resonates better.
If a word makes sense I keep it, if it doesn’t resonate I look at translations and the history of the word it’s origin, etc....
I have seen evidence of language corruption, so it’s the practice that must ultimately guide us, not scriptures translated through another’s unique experience.
Bhikku bhodi is not the absolute for myself.

Plus abstain from taking life is ultimately not being reborn.

[DNS]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... asila.html
Here it says destroying. Destroying is mutilation.

It says:
"I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures."

That is just another way of saying killing. It's about killing living beings not mutilation (alone).

No, it means mutilation/cruelty.

Go back and see my post above.

See further down, the rest on that page from the Suttas:

"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from taking life. . . .

[santa100]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... asila.html
It doesn’t say kill, it says destroy.
I’m not slandering anything. I’m studying the definitions and wording and basing my wisdom of experience to see which resonates better.
If a word makes sense I keep it, if it doesn’t resonate I look at translations and the history of the word it’s origin, etc....
I have seen evidence of language corruption, so it’s the practice that must ultimately guide us, not scriptures translated through another’s unique experience.
Bhikku bhodi is not the absolute for myself.

Plus abstain from taking life is ultimately not being reborn.

And obviously you do not limit your killing to just animals in the lower strata. Killing other humans are also a perfectly legit thing for a Sotapanna to do! If that's not utterly utterly 1000% slandering the Buddha and His Teaching, i don't know what is. One more thing, DW admins, I think thepea's message below about justifying killing humans have crossed over some TOS red line, for it's no longer just some silly crazy message, it has become a very dangerous one now.

Hogwash!
I’m living proof.
I fish and eat the fish.
Y’all are not being realistic and a touch hypocritical.
You are declaring things that only a Buddha can know.
One sotapanna might kill another might not. A mosquito, a mouse, a chicken, a pig, a human, it matters not.

[thepea]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... asila.html
It doesn’t say kill, it says destroy.
I’m not slandering anything. I’m studying the definitions and wording and basing my wisdom of experience to see which resonates better.
If a word makes sense I keep it, if it doesn’t resonate I look at translations and the history of the word it’s origin, etc....
I have seen evidence of language corruption, so it’s the practice that must ultimately guide us, not scriptures translated through another’s unique experience.
Bhikku bhodi is not the absolute for myself.

Plus abstain from taking life is ultimately not being reborn.

And obviously you do not limit your killing to just animals in the lower strata. Killing other humans are also a perfectly legit thing for a Sotapanna to do! If that's not utterly utterly 1000% slandering the Buddha and His Teaching, i don't know what is.

Hogwash!
I’m living proof.
I fish and eat the fish.
Y’all are not being realistic and a touch hypocritical.
You are declaring things that only a Buddha can know.
One sotapanna might kill another might not. A mosquito, a mouse, a chicken, a pig, a human, it matters not.

Again... I kill to sustain the body(food), I kill to protect the body. It matters not what is killed. Man or beast.
But.... I do not destroy/mutilate in cruelty.

[thepea]

Go back and see my post above.

See further down, the rest on that page from the Suttas:

"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from taking life. . . .

There is the time where an enlightened man , did not blindly react and commit the sin of bringing forth a new birth.

This is literally telling us to refrain from taking addition births. To get the job done. To become arahant.

[DNS]

Go back and see my post above.

See further down, the rest on that page from the Suttas:

"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from taking life. . . .

This is literally telling us to refrain from taking addition births. To get the job done. To become arahant.

Wrong. Again. Your knowledge of Dhamma is atrocious.

[thepea]

Go back and see my post above.

See further down, the rest on that page from the Suttas:

There is the time where an enlightened man , did not blindly react and commit the sin of bringing forth a new birth.

This is literally telling us to refrain from taking addition births. To get the job done. To become arahant.

Wrong. Again. Your knowledge of Dhamma is atrocious.

It’s uncommon, not run of the mill.
I’m not forcing you to accept my comprehension of dhamma, I’m simply adding a differing take on it.
I’m not oblivious to the fact you disagree strongly, but using the words provided and their definitions this is an alternate take.

[Joe.c]

Sorry but your judgement of me and a sota is mistaken.
But you do not have to believe, I put zero importance on belief.
Do you have the sota registration files, maybe you got my name wrong, I’m not listed under thepea.

I don't judge. I'm just stating what you have told us and clarify where you are going.

Your mind still find a reason to clarify and satisfy your 5 senses. A mind under 5 senses is a mind under Mara influences.

Like a person who is going to a pit of fire, you are in that direction. Nibbana is a place where it is cool and pure.

Your reply is the opposite of Buddha's Dhamma. Hence it is impossible for you to reach Nibbana with those views and practices.

Heck to reach a 4 great king world is almost impossible because the above kama loka has some purities in term of morality. The higher your sila, the higher kama loka realm one can reach.

It is also impossible to reach samadhi without perfected morality. Most people think they have reach samadhi, in fact they have not. One needs to completely detach from 5 senses to reach samadhi.

Good luck.

[Spiny Norman]

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dha ... asila.html
Here it says destroying. Destroying is mutilation.

No, "destroying" here means killing. Mutilation would be "damaging".

However Right Intention includes the development of harmlesness, which would presumably include avoiding mutilation.

[thepea]

Sorry but your judgement of me and a sota is mistaken.
But you do not have to believe, I put zero importance on belief.
Do you have the sota registration files, maybe you got my name wrong, I’m not listed under thepea.

I don't judge. I'm just stating what you have told us and clarify where you are going.

Your mind still find a reason to clarify and satisfy your 5 senses. A mind under 5 senses is a mind under Mara influences.

Like a person who is going to a pit of fire, you are in that direction. Nibbana is a place where it is cool and pure.

Your reply is the opposite of Buddha's Dhamma. Hence it is impossible for you to reach Nibbana with those views and practices.

Heck to reach a 4 great king world is almost impossible because the above kama loka has some purities in term of morality. The higher your sila, the higher kama loka realm one can reach.

It is also impossible to reach samadhi without perfected morality. Most people think they have reach samadhi, in fact they have not. One needs to completely detach from 5 senses to reach samadhi.

Good luck.

Let’s start in order:

1. Yes, you are judging. Let’s be honest here you are judging the mind I carry, based on only the print you see on a screen. Even if you were to see me in real life and my actions you would not know the mind I carry from moment to moment. You could judge this but be honest it your judgement of me.

2. Correct, I am not free from sin(greed/ fear of loss) I also do not claim arahantship.

3. Again this is judgement, how do you know where I’ve been or where I’m going? I am quite happy. Only ones direction you know is your own. I hope you are moving towards cool peaceful state.

4. This is actually what I am openly debating here, as some translate the first precept as killing and others as destroy.
Two very different words with very different meanings.
I do comprehend that when a majority of people accept one popular way of thinking then there can be a great deal of attachment to this and the actions one they deem fitting of a noble one. I passed through the supramundane jhanas and then it’s incorrect to speak of nibbana in terms of self but for this conversation. “I” entered nibanna and then consciousness linked to a new form. It was the same as my last form only now this mind is different. It cannot go to certain dark places of fear that it was capable of before. But this body and this mind can kill. I don’t think about killing or harming creatures on purpose but I can fish for meat or protect this form and it’s family and community.

5. Yes, you are speaking of jhanas, but sota is not in a continuous state of jhana. These are higher lokas.

6.this is not true, you can reach first jhana without perfected morality or any other jhana. You will simply pop in and out without control as the mind will slip into states of sin.