Sam Vara wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 2:19 pm
thepea wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:43 pm
Sam Vara wrote: ↑Mon Jul 25, 2022 9:07 am
This seems to be another list of red herrings; issues which do not address the point I am making.
My point is this. Contrary to your view, the Buddha appears to offer advice to lay people to not kill other beings. That advice appears to be universal, in the sense that the only condition attached is "If you want to avoid suffering", or "If you want to purify yourself", etc, then you should not kill. If the details in the suttas matter, where are the details which function as exceptions to this advice? Under what circumstances does the Buddha specifically say that it is OK for lay people to kill other beings? I'm talking here about circumstances indicated by the Buddha, rather than those supplied by yourself or others. I'm perfectly OK with you or anyone else saying that they think it is OK to kill other beings; that they need to, or the size of the creature killed or the intention of the killer somehow excuses them. I'm merely interested in whether that view that it is sometimes OK to kill other beings is anywhere endorsed by the what the Buddha is reported to have said.
Sam these are common everyday things that’ man has to deal with, unless they have servants or staff to deal with this. Killing is required at Vipassana centres or they get shut down. If someone brings in bed bugs they must be dealt with they CANNOT stay.
Similarly mice are removed from food storage areas and cooking areas. The government will shut them down if health standards are not met.
Even the monastery I attended had an infestation in Neely constructed temple and they had to deal with it and creatures were killed.
My point is unless you ordain or are sitting a retreat you have to deal with the mundane tasks of life and this involves killing.
If you are supported by a staff or volunteer like a monastic or a retreatant you can “avoid” such mundane activities and mind can settle into jhana and insight can arise.
If you reach a stage of purification (non-returner or higher) then it’s most likely you will need protection from life’s mundane activities. The mind/body would not be able to perform certain basic tasks and maintain this level of purity. Others must do these for you, you must AVOID these. Most likely without support these individuals would perish. This is supported where an arahant must ordain within 10 days or perish.
My point above is that the Buddha's advice to lay people not to kill other beings seems to be unconditional. I would willingly relinquish this point if any such conditions could be located; if there was any evidence in the suttas that the Buddha said that it was OK for lay people to kill when those conditions were met.
You haven't provided any evidence of those conditions. What you have done instead is to claim that you personally have found that lay life requires killing. I respect that claim, but it doesn't address my point, which is about the Buddha's teachings, rather than your experiences and the inferences you draw from them. They are two different things.
The Buddha is not going to openly permit and support killing, just as I do not encourage others to kill.
Similarly Goenka running grass roots meditation centres cannot operate using alms for students and staff so he chose a vegetarian diet for his own peace of mind.
These were highly evolved beings, they were both supported and did not carry out basic mundane tasks for basic survival.
As we progress on the path it will become necessary to avoid certain actions to observe subtler and subtler aspects of dhamma. We work with what presents as it is and not as we imagine it to be.
Your position is that of an arahants behaviour, this is not realistic for the householder and it becomes an imbalance or extremism to try to live this way suppressing natural relations as they arise.
Many old students at Vipassana centres are out of balance trying to live as a monastic but remaining a layman. I saw this quite a lot, they seemed uneasy and not at peace. I believe many monastics feel similarly after taking robes and the walls close in on them.
I’m suggesting a middle way, where ultimately one comes out of killing but apparently they are caught in the middle of this mess. Best not to beat oneself up and adopt a realistic gentle approach with balance.
You are looking for a sutta where Buddha(arahant) says it’s ok to kill and you won’t find this. But you won’t find a sutta where a monastic tells a fisherman he’s going to hell for providing them with their daily alms(fish stew).
It’s messy in the middle, and I’m suggesting when killing it’s the mind we carry that is of most importance. If there is peace in the mind then kamma is light and passes very quickly if the mind is heavy and miserable then the kamma is heavy and will last a long time.