First precept

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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DNS
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Re: First precept

Post by DNS »

In the other discussion, you can see some Sutta references I quoted.

viewtopic.php?p=459184#p459184
thepea
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Re: First precept

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:53 am In the other discussion, you can see some Sutta references I quoted.

viewtopic.php?p=459184#p459184
Quote all the suttas you want, but you made accusations towards me. So I demand to know your position on this matter.
That’s seems only fair, you can’t accuse someone of something and then sit on the fence.
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NotMe
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Re: First precept

Post by NotMe »

DNS wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:29 am
thepea wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:13 am Ok then how do you expect the sotapanna who has only removed three fetters to have moral perfection?
This is an extremist view and not the middle way.
That's a separate issue / topic. See this other thread:
viewtopic.php?t=14256
Thank you for that link. With Retro's link that goes back 13 years!

Metta

:anjali:
Ontheway
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Re: First precept

Post by Ontheway »

thepea wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:42 am I’m arguing that from observing native originals and the harmony of which they exist with the land that the precept being simply killing is incorrect. And that destruction and the way I’ve presented it seems to resonate with me more.
Now I’m not firm in this and I can be flexible, but this must accompany a sota being not of perfected precepts having according to suttas only removed three fetters. I can totally see how the experience of nibanna removed the three but not how this perfects ones morality.
If people buy this logic of yours, disasters bound to occur.

"I feel like being at peace when I snap someone's neck. If gives me joy and rapture."

"I feel like I'm attaining higher state of consciousness when I happily kill animals, splitting their bodies in half made me happy."

"I feel like I attained peace if I hunt animals down and kill them with my bare hands gracefully. They are happy to die in my hands too."

What kind of human is this? A PSYCHOPATH.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Ontheway
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Re: First precept

Post by Ontheway »

thepea wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:27 am
DNS wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:10 am You have openly admitted to violating the First Precept, so that means you cannot be a sotapanna.
How can I admit to violating the first precept when we are currently discussing what this first precept is?
This is not something you can discuss. This is a precept laid down by the Buddha Himself. Period.

If you don't agree, go away.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Re: First precept

Post by DNS »

thepea wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:27 am
DNS wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:10 am You have openly admitted to violating the First Precept, so that means you cannot be a sotapanna.
How can I admit to violating the first precept when we are currently discussing what this first precept is?
You have admitted to killing in this and in other threads. You asked my opinion. You will see from my posts above, I didn't want to provide my opinion as I knew you wouldn't like it. If you don't want my opinion, don't ask for it next time.

:focus:
thepea
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Re: First precept

Post by thepea »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:29 am
thepea wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:27 am
DNS wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:10 am You have openly admitted to violating the First Precept, so that means you cannot be a sotapanna.
How can I admit to violating the first precept when we are currently discussing what this first precept is?
This is not something you can discuss. This is a precept laid down by the Buddha Himself. Period.

If you don't agree, go away.
Ahh, I thought we were discussing the first precept and the possibility it means something else altogether?

A black woman decides I’m not sitting on the back of the bus anymore, and moved to the front.
She stood up and took an action that lead to change.
You do t have to exit the bus.
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Re: First precept

Post by Spiny Norman »

On the question of killing animals, I'm curious about what it was like in rural India during the Buddhas time. Did most people rear and kill their own livestock?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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NotMe
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Re: First precept

Post by NotMe »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:42 am On the question of killing animals, I'm curious about what it was like in rural India during the Buddhas time. Did most people rear and kill their own livestock?
I’m reading:

https://journalofethnicfoods.biomedcent ... 22-00129-4

Cows, goats, buffaloes, bulls and Horses!

Lots a grains and dairy too.

Metta

:anjali:

Edit to add: Brahmans were mainly vegetarian.
Last edited by NotMe on Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
thepea
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Re: First precept

Post by thepea »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:42 am On the question of killing animals, I'm curious about what it was like in rural India during the Buddhas time. Did most people rear and kill their own livestock?
This is what I was curious also about given the sweeping statement that buddhists don’t kill and the monastics stick to their own culture. They do seem to eat fish and beef and chicken and eggs and all forms of breathing beasts. Who does the killing?
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Re: First precept

Post by DNS »

thepea wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:50 am This is what I was curious also about given the sweeping statement that buddhists don’t kill and the monastics stick to their own culture. They do seem to eat fish and beef and chicken and eggs and all forms of breathing beasts. Who does the killing?
Undoubtedly, some buddhists do kill. Some are fishermen, some might even work in slaughterhouses. It just means that they aren't following the precepts perfectly, but are still buddhists. Just as there are some Jews who eat pork (even though it's not kosher) and some Muslims who eat during the day during Ramadan, etc.
thepea
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Re: First precept

Post by thepea »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:28 am
thepea wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:42 am I’m arguing that from observing native originals and the harmony of which they exist with the land that the precept being simply killing is incorrect. And that destruction and the way I’ve presented it seems to resonate with me more.
Now I’m not firm in this and I can be flexible, but this must accompany a sota being not of perfected precepts having according to suttas only removed three fetters. I can totally see how the experience of nibanna removed the three but not how this perfects ones morality.
If people buy this logic of yours, disasters bound to occur.

"I feel like being at peace when I snap someone's neck. If gives me joy and rapture."

"I feel like I'm attaining higher state of consciousness when I happily kill animals, splitting their bodies in half made me happy."

"I feel like I attained peace if I hunt animals down and kill them with my bare hands gracefully. They are happy to die in my hands too."

What kind of human is this? A PSYCHOPATH.
I comprehend that blood and guts and killing is a sensitive subject. But where I live people call piglets bacon seeds and list them for sale as such. No the women laugh and joke and buy them to raise.
These people do not hate animals and they are very wise at caring for them and their needs to enjoy happy lives up until the end.
Also we have 600 acres of public land across the street from our homestead and the hunters hunt bear and moose and they too are extremely knowledgeable of the environment and animal populations, and have an etiquette to choosing who goes in the crosshairs.
The river bounds with fishermen and the animals hunt each other in the forest.
It’s a blood bath around here. But it’s natural and peaceful and seems much more aligned than the big city we left over a year ago.
I don’t reccomend thinking those thoughts you mention.
Last edited by thepea on Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
justindesilva
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Re: First precept

Post by justindesilva »

Ontheway wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:29 am
thepea wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:27 am
DNS wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:10 am You have openly admitted to violating the First Precept, so that means you cannot be a sotapanna.
How can I admit to violating the first precept when we are currently discussing what this first precept is?
This is not something you can discuss. This is a precept laid down by the Buddha Himself. Period.

If you don't agree, go away.
Samma ajiva in 8fnp is quoted by budda because it is an all time universal reqirement.
The world is shaped by life energy and containing energy is possible only with living beings . Lord budda nowhere as I see has tried to detail what life energy except laying down principles to protect life.
Just imagine what the world would be without life energy. Even plants have life energy as believed by jaimists. But only we beings have life energy control and also is controlled by life energy.
Hence lord budda made us protect life as an energy.
thepea
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Re: First precept

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:57 am
thepea wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:50 am This is what I was curious also about given the sweeping statement that buddhists don’t kill and the monastics stick to their own culture. They do seem to eat fish and beef and chicken and eggs and all forms of breathing beasts. Who does the killing?
Undoubtedly, some buddhists do kill. Some are fishermen, some might even work in slaughterhouses. It just means that they aren't following the precepts perfectly, but are still buddhists. Just as there are some Jews who eat pork (even though it's not kosher) and some Muslims who eat during the day during Ramadan, etc.
What is a Buddhist?
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Re: First precept

Post by DNS »

thepea wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:06 am What is a Buddhist?
It's usually defined as someone who takes refuge in the Triple Gem (Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha) and takes the five precepts (lay people), but this doesn't necessarily mean they will be perfect at keeping the precepts or reaching advanced states of samadhi, etc., or reaching any noble levels, just that they will be practicing as best they can.
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