First precept

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
thepea
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Re: First precept

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:45 pm
thepea wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:28 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:00 pm

So if what you say is true, then your paradigm example of destruction (dropping a bomb on a city) would result in disease. So let's see....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Tibb ... _and_death
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Ferebee

No sign of it, but maybe they had dandruff or fallen arches or something.
Did they have PTSD, were they substance abusers?
Not so as to show up on wikipedia. They lived a long time, had successful careers, and didn't regret what they did. Indistinguishable from millions of Americans their age.
Regret is a private issue. You cannot always see it.
When you look at 200 meditators sitting peacefully in a temple you can’t see the battles going on.

Also if these men felt they were acting in self defence, then this is not destructive killing to them, they may not suffer any kamma. I find this difficult to imagine in those quiet moment reflecting on what was done but it’s not my kamma.
Last edited by thepea on Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cappuccino
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Re: First precept

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Karma Houdini
The character has done a number of things that deserve a karmic comeuppance, most importantly things that caused harm to the innocent. But when the time comes for the hammer to fall, that's not what happens. At least, not on them. They don’t get what they deserve.
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Sam Vara
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Re: First precept

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:17 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:45 pm
thepea wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:28 pm
Did they have PTSD, were they substance abusers?
Not so as to show up on wikipedia. They lived a long time, had successful careers, and didn't regret what they did. Indistinguishable from millions of Americans their age.
Regret is a private issue. You cannot always see it.
When you look at 200 meditators sitting peacefully in a temple you can’t see the battles going on.

Also if these men felt they were acting in self defence, then this is not destructive killing to them, they may not suffer any kamma. I find this difficult to imagine in those quiet moment reflecting on what was done but it’s not my kamma.
So, an untestable private theory with no possible evidence to support it, nor any textual support. OK. May you derive benefit from it. :anjali:
thepea
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Re: First precept

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:31 pm
thepea wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:17 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:45 pm

Not so as to show up on wikipedia. They lived a long time, had successful careers, and didn't regret what they did. Indistinguishable from millions of Americans their age.
Regret is a private issue. You cannot always see it.
When you look at 200 meditators sitting peacefully in a temple you can’t see the battles going on.

Also if these men felt they were acting in self defence, then this is not destructive killing to them, they may not suffer any kamma. I find this difficult to imagine in those quiet moment reflecting on what was done but it’s not my kamma.
So, an untestable private theory with no possible evidence to support it, nor any textual support. OK. May you derive benefit from it. :anjali:
It’s testable by all of us, it’s certainly not private, what evidence do you need? War vets suffering from their heinous crimes or countless householders providing food for their communities and enjoying a good life?
The textual support is in the translation, it’s destruction not killing. The entirety of the suttas are language corrupted.
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Sam Vara
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Re: First precept

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:43 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:31 pm
thepea wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:17 pm

Regret is a private issue. You cannot always see it.
When you look at 200 meditators sitting peacefully in a temple you can’t see the battles going on.

Also if these men felt they were acting in self defence, then this is not destructive killing to them, they may not suffer any kamma. I find this difficult to imagine in those quiet moment reflecting on what was done but it’s not my kamma.
So, an untestable private theory with no possible evidence to support it, nor any textual support. OK. May you derive benefit from it. :anjali:
It’s testable by all of us, it’s certainly not private, what evidence do you need? War vets suffering from their heinous crimes or countless householders providing food for their communities and enjoying a good life?
What evidence have you got? Lots of vets don't suffer at all. And lots of of people who have no war experience suffering greatly.
The textual support is in the translation, it’s destruction not killing. The entirety of the suttas are language corrupted.
Ah, you're back to this one. You played this card in another thread. If you believe it, it means that pāṇātipātā is not what the Buddha said - it must be a later corrupt addition by some monk or transcriber. And someone has translated this Pali term into a range of meanings, to try to convey what it means. "Killing, killing living beings, killing breathing creatures, destroying breathing creatures, destroying life, etc, etc...". And you are then deciding that it means those English terms that you favour - those which don't use the word "kill", but use another term which has a wider range of meanings in the English, like "destruction".

That's merely your own moral code or system of ethics that you are using there. It cannot have anything to do with what the Buddha said, because you have no cogent reason to select one translation rather than another; and because corrupted texts mean that you can't ever know what the Buddha actually meant. That's fine. You have your own moral code, which you have rehearsed here so often that I probably know it almost as well as you do. It's your own private morality, or one cobbled together from other ethical systems you have read about. There's nothing wrong with that, and I wish you well with it. You have said you are not a Buddhist. But presenting it here on a Theravadan Buddhist forum, and occasionally relating it to Buddhist ideas, means that you will be perpetually talking at cross-purposes with people who think you have misunderstood the teachings. Whereas in fact, you have a different teaching.

Do you think it's time to give it a rest now? Are there any new ideas that you want to raise about the first precept, or does the thread need locking? As you don't have a Buddhist morality, I could put in in "connections to other paths"...
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Re: First precept

Post by cappuccino »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:07 pmbecause corrupted texts mean that you can't ever know what the Buddha actually meant.
Faith
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Sam Vara
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Re: First precept

Post by Sam Vara »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:05 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:07 pmbecause corrupted texts mean that you can't ever know what the Buddha actually meant.
Faith
The more corrupted one believes the texts to be, the more one needs it, I guess. But nothing can be based entirely on faith.
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Re: First precept

Post by cappuccino »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:12 pm The more corrupted one believes the texts to be, the more one needs it, I guess.
There is no benefit to that belief
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Re: First precept

Post by Sam Vara »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:17 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:12 pm The more corrupted one believes the texts to be, the more one needs it, I guess.
There is no benefit to that belief
I wish I could sometimes understand what you are saying, cap....
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Re: First precept

Post by cappuccino »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:30 pm I wish I could sometimes understand what you are saying, cap....
:)
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Re: First precept

Post by Johann »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:12 pm
cappuccino wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:05 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:07 pmbecause corrupted texts mean that you can't ever know what the Buddha actually meant.
Faith
The more corrupted one believes the texts to be, the more one needs it, I guess. But nothing can be based entirely on faith.
The path for liberation has it as base, good householder. Seeing dukkha it's cause. With incomplete faith, incomplete virtue, no path. Liberation, as it's path, has to be taken eternally on faith, both without relay of known.

Done it, no more doubts. Reading for the most is just chosen food for defilments.

Btw., the fisher boys.

The is no liberating benefit in wrong belief, just in right.
Last edited by Johann on Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joe.c
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Re: First precept

Post by Joe.c »

thepea wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:17 pm Regret is a private issue. You cannot always see it.
When you look at 200 meditators sitting peacefully in a temple you can’t see the battles going on.
Easy. Show me i will tell you who didn't sit peacefully. Most probably just sit with their mind wondering around. Not possibly to sit without perfect morality. The hindrances are just too great.
Also if these men felt they were acting in self defence, then this is not destructive killing to them, they may not suffer any kamma. I find this difficult to imagine in those quiet moment reflecting on what was done but it’s not my kamma.
Like I said you have limited knowledge. Don't see other world yet. So you are just based on current life event. Once the kamma vipaka past, you will soon experience suffering. Especially holding on the wrong view.

See below how Buddha explain for his disciples. No one dare to fight back even if someone stab one in the back. They still think about good things.

This is how perfecting morality. Not reacting emotionally, always behave peacefully in term of body, speech and mind.
MN 145 wrote: ...
If they stab me with a knife, I’ll think: ‘These people of Sunāparanta are gracious, truly gracious, since they don’t take my life with a sharp knife.’ That’s what I’ll think, Blessed One. That’s what I’ll think, Holy One.”

“But if they do take your life with a sharp knife, what will you think of them then?”

“If they take my life with a sharp knife, I’ll think: ‘There are disciples of the Buddha who looked for someone to assist with slitting their wrists because they were horrified, repelled, and disgusted with the body and with life. And I have found this without looking!’ That’s what I’ll think, Blessed One. That’s what I’ll think, Holy One.”

“Good, good Puṇṇa! Having such self-control and peacefulness, you will be quite capable of living in Sunāparanta. Now, Puṇṇa, go at your convenience.”
...
Btw for head splitting spell. Here you go.
DN 3 wrote: ...
So the Buddha said to Ambaṭṭha, “Well, Ambaṭṭha, there’s a legitimate question that comes up. You won’t like it, but you ought to answer anyway. If you don’t answer, but dodge the issue, remain silent, or simply leave, your head will explode into seven pieces right here. What do you think, Ambaṭṭha? According to what you have heard from elderly and senior brahmins, the teachers of teachers, what is the origin of the Kaṇhāyanas, and who is their founder?”

When he said this, Ambaṭṭha kept silent.

For a second time, the Buddha put the question, and for a second time Ambaṭṭha kept silent.

So the Buddha said to him, “Answer now, Ambaṭṭha. Now is not the time for silence. If someone fails to answer a legitimate question when asked three times by the Buddha, their head explodes into seven pieces there and then.”

Now at that time the spirit Vajirapāṇi, holding a massive iron spear, burning, blazing, and glowing, stood in the sky above Ambaṭṭha, thinking, “If this Ambaṭṭha doesn’t answer when asked a third time, I’ll blow his head into seven pieces there and then!” And both the Buddha and Ambaṭṭha could see Vajirapāṇi.

Ambaṭṭha was terrified, shocked, and awestruck. Looking to the Buddha for shelter, protection, and refuge, he sat down close by the Buddha and said, “What did you say? Please repeat the question.”
...
Btw don't put your own interpretation into Buddha mouth ever.

If one who has seen a truth and read/know your mind for your wrong view. It is possible to activate the spell.

So please don't put your own interpretation into Buddha mouth. That is a NO NO.

If you don't understand, please go study. Don't dodge or put your interpretation into Buddha mouth ever again.

Good luck.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
thepea
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Re: First precept

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:07 pm
thepea wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:43 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:31 pm

So, an untestable private theory with no possible evidence to support it, nor any textual support. OK. May you derive benefit from it. :anjali:
It’s testable by all of us, it’s certainly not private, what evidence do you need? War vets suffering from their heinous crimes or countless householders providing food for their communities and enjoying a good life?
What evidence have you got? Lots of vets don't suffer at all. And lots of of people who have no war experience suffering greatly.
The textual support is in the translation, it’s destruction not killing. The entirety of the suttas are language corrupted.
Ah, you're back to this one. You played this card in another thread. If you believe it, it means that pāṇātipātā is not what the Buddha said - it must be a later corrupt addition by some monk or transcriber. And someone has translated this Pali term into a range of meanings, to try to convey what it means. "Killing, killing living beings, killing breathing creatures, destroying breathing creatures, destroying life, etc, etc...". And you are then deciding that it means those English terms that you favour - those which don't use the word "kill", but use another term which has a wider range of meanings in the English, like "destruction".

That's merely your own moral code or system of ethics that you are using there. It cannot have anything to do with what the Buddha said, because you have no cogent reason to select one translation rather than another; and because corrupted texts mean that you can't ever know what the Buddha actually meant. That's fine. You have your own moral code, which you have rehearsed here so often that I probably know it almost as well as you do. It's your own private morality, or one cobbled together from other ethical systems you have read about. There's nothing wrong with that, and I wish you well with it. You have said you are not a Buddhist. But presenting it here on a Theravadan Buddhist forum, and occasionally relating it to Buddhist ideas, means that you will be perpetually talking at cross-purposes with people who think you have misunderstood the teachings. Whereas in fact, you have a different teaching.

Do you think it's time to give it a rest now? Are there any new ideas that you want to raise about the first precept, or does the thread need locking? As you don't have a Buddhist morality, I could put in in "connections to other paths"...
Correct.... I’m not Buddhist, but neither was/is Buddha.
This is what Mr. Goenka taught and what I’ve mentioned countless times here. I really don’t comprehend why you find it so difficult for one to practice the dhamma without being or labelling oneself as Buddhist. This seems to be a defence mechanism used here to devalue another member or to cast them aside.
Also why must the thread be locked? There are countless threads that remain open to discuss things as and when questions arise.

I’m stating and standing to the first precept being about the sin of destruction and I’m claiming that for layman avoiding killing is an extreme, like veganism, or vegetarianism. Buddha was a beggar and made due whatever was placed in the bowl.
I get the compassion for other beings aspect of the teachings, and I fully agree for monastics and meditators doing serious stretches of meditation avoiding killing is wise. But my point is that for these folks doing the serious work they are for this time period monastics for all intent and purpose. A layman does a morning sit and evening sit and works to maintain awareness as best they can while performing their duties be that construction(excavation which they are knowingly killing and harming countless living beings), a fisherman, a scientist testing drugs on animals, etc.....
Killing is simply something that happens countless times a day at the gross and subtle levels.
Again... I grasp the concept of non harm and compassion for other living breathing beings, but it extremism to generate worry and concern over every action you take as a layman. Perhaps as one progresses on the path their will come a time when an individual simply cannot do their excavation job or test drugs on animals. But this will not be at the stage of sotapanna.
Sotapanna is “fishsauce” as a late Thai monk was said, and I agree. On ones first retreat if good samadhi is developed one can pass through all the stages of insight and transcend(realize Nibanna). For myself it was after my second retreat, a year of samadhi work and then one year of practicing Goenka’s technique. Then I realized nibanna and got the big question answered. Now, I’m not concerned about the rigid ness of practice. It’s all falling into place naturally. I’ve had to pull back from intense practice and focus more on work and layman family responsibilities.
It just doesn’t feel wrong to go fishing. I honestly just got back from for hours on the Atlantic Ocean, it’s very meditative out on the ocean in a 14’ fishing boat watching waves and weather and observing fear as they arise. Couple days ago police pulled up to me and I simply remained silent as they looked into my boat and conducted their investigation, then without a word spoken between either of us they simply motored off to next boat.
In past I would have been nervous and chattery, but with practice I simply keep quiet and smile.

You haven’t answered my question of, what is so wrong with killing a fish for dinner?
Or killing worms and bugs running an excavator?
Or killing potato bugs or cucumber beetles in my garden?
Mans got to sustain himself, correct?
thepea
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Re: First precept

Post by thepea »

Joe.c wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:40 am
thepea wrote: Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:17 pm Regret is a private issue. You cannot always see it.
When you look at 200 meditators sitting peacefully in a temple you can’t see the battles going on.
Easy. Show me i will tell you who didn't sit peacefully. Most probably just sit with their mind wondering around. Not possibly to sit without perfect morality. The hindrances are just too great.
Also if these men felt they were acting in self defence, then this is not destructive killing to them, they may not suffer any kamma. I find this difficult to imagine in those quiet moment reflecting on what was done but it’s not my kamma.
Like I said you have limited knowledge. Don't see other world yet. So you are just based on current life event. Once the kamma vipaka past, you will soon experience suffering. Especially holding on the wrong view.

See below how Buddha explain for his disciples. No one dare to fight back even if someone stab one in the back. They still think about good things.

This is how perfecting morality. Not reacting emotionally, always behave peacefully in term of body, speech and mind.
MN 145 wrote: ...
If they stab me with a knife, I’ll think: ‘These people of Sunāparanta are gracious, truly gracious, since they don’t take my life with a sharp knife.’ That’s what I’ll think, Blessed One. That’s what I’ll think, Holy One.”

“But if they do take your life with a sharp knife, what will you think of them then?”

“If they take my life with a sharp knife, I’ll think: ‘There are disciples of the Buddha who looked for someone to assist with slitting their wrists because they were horrified, repelled, and disgusted with the body and with life. And I have found this without looking!’ That’s what I’ll think, Blessed One. That’s what I’ll think, Holy One.”

“Good, good Puṇṇa! Having such self-control and peacefulness, you will be quite capable of living in Sunāparanta. Now, Puṇṇa, go at your convenience.”
...
Btw for head splitting spell. Here you go.
DN 3 wrote: ...
So the Buddha said to Ambaṭṭha, “Well, Ambaṭṭha, there’s a legitimate question that comes up. You won’t like it, but you ought to answer anyway. If you don’t answer, but dodge the issue, remain silent, or simply leave, your head will explode into seven pieces right here. What do you think, Ambaṭṭha? According to what you have heard from elderly and senior brahmins, the teachers of teachers, what is the origin of the Kaṇhāyanas, and who is their founder?”

When he said this, Ambaṭṭha kept silent.

For a second time, the Buddha put the question, and for a second time Ambaṭṭha kept silent.

So the Buddha said to him, “Answer now, Ambaṭṭha. Now is not the time for silence. If someone fails to answer a legitimate question when asked three times by the Buddha, their head explodes into seven pieces there and then.”

Now at that time the spirit Vajirapāṇi, holding a massive iron spear, burning, blazing, and glowing, stood in the sky above Ambaṭṭha, thinking, “If this Ambaṭṭha doesn’t answer when asked a third time, I’ll blow his head into seven pieces there and then!” And both the Buddha and Ambaṭṭha could see Vajirapāṇi.

Ambaṭṭha was terrified, shocked, and awestruck. Looking to the Buddha for shelter, protection, and refuge, he sat down close by the Buddha and said, “What did you say? Please repeat the question.”
...
Btw don't put your own interpretation into Buddha mouth ever.

If one who has seen a truth and read/know your mind for your wrong view. It is possible to activate the spell.

So please don't put your own interpretation into Buddha mouth. That is a NO NO.

If you don't understand, please go study. Don't dodge or put your interpretation into Buddha mouth ever again.

Good luck.
When I develop samadhi, it’s through successive meditations, on retreat. I’m not able to maintain jhanic concentration in my laylife.
So I agree with you, that keeping as perfect morality as capable is the correct step towards developing strong samadhi. I’ve never once argued this point.
I’m saying that when I finish serious meditation and return to my layman’s responsibilities my morality is not perfect.
I indulge in sex, I go fishing, I might tell mistruths to my offspring about fictitious men in ref suits delivering presents at night, or a fairy that leaves a coin under your pillow and takes a tooth.
Point is, I’ve passed through the stages of insight and realized the ultimate truth of nibanna, this by definition makes me a sotapanna(fishsauce), and although this has greatly transformed my life, it doesn’t stop me from breaching the precepts, if these are breaches?
A layman sotapanna can kill, I assure you of this. What they cannot do(or at least what I cannot do) is generate states of mind that cause rebirth in the undesirable planes of existence. I’m simply just not that consumed by fear as I was capable in past, before dying and passing through nibanna and being reborn.
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Re: First precept

Post by DNS »

thepea wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:03 am A layman sotapanna can kill, I assure you of this.
Just curious, according to your view, when does the killing stop? Surely, for an arahant they don't kill. What about sakadagamis, anagamis? Do they kill too (according to your view)?
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