Sam Vara wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:07 pm
thepea wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:43 pm
Sam Vara wrote: ↑Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:31 pm
So, an untestable private theory with no possible evidence to support it, nor any textual support. OK. May you derive benefit from it.
It’s testable by all of us, it’s certainly not private, what evidence do you need? War vets suffering from their heinous crimes or countless householders providing food for their communities and enjoying a good life?
What evidence have you got? Lots of vets don't suffer at all. And lots of of people who have no war experience suffering greatly.
The textual support is in the translation, it’s destruction not killing. The entirety of the suttas are language corrupted.
Ah, you're back to this one. You played this card in another thread. If you believe it, it means that
pāṇātipātā is not what the Buddha said - it must be a later corrupt addition by some monk or transcriber. And someone has translated this Pali term into a range of meanings, to try to convey what it means. "Killing, killing living beings, killing breathing creatures, destroying breathing creatures, destroying life, etc, etc...". And you are then deciding that it means those English terms that you favour - those which don't use the word "kill", but use another term which has a wider range of meanings in the English, like "destruction".
That's merely your own moral code or system of ethics that you are using there. It cannot have anything to do with what the Buddha said, because you have no cogent reason to select one translation rather than another; and because corrupted texts mean that you can't ever know what the Buddha actually meant. That's fine. You have your own moral code, which you have rehearsed here so often that I probably know it almost as well as you do. It's your own private morality, or one cobbled together from other ethical systems you have read about. There's nothing wrong with that, and I wish you well with it. You have said you are not a Buddhist. But presenting it here on a Theravadan Buddhist forum, and occasionally relating it to Buddhist ideas, means that you will be perpetually talking at cross-purposes with people who think you have misunderstood the teachings. Whereas in fact, you have a different teaching.
Do you think it's time to give it a rest now? Are there any
new ideas that you want to raise about the first precept, or does the thread need locking? As you don't have a Buddhist morality, I could put in in "connections to other paths"...
Correct.... I’m not Buddhist, but neither was/is Buddha.
This is what Mr. Goenka taught and what I’ve mentioned countless times here. I really don’t comprehend why you find it so difficult for one to practice the dhamma without being or labelling oneself as Buddhist. This seems to be a defence mechanism used here to devalue another member or to cast them aside.
Also why must the thread be locked? There are countless threads that remain open to discuss things as and when questions arise.
I’m stating and standing to the first precept being about the sin of destruction and I’m claiming that for layman avoiding killing is an extreme, like veganism, or vegetarianism. Buddha was a beggar and made due whatever was placed in the bowl.
I get the compassion for other beings aspect of the teachings, and I fully agree for monastics and meditators doing serious stretches of meditation avoiding killing is wise. But my point is that for these folks doing the serious work they are for this time period monastics for all intent and purpose. A layman does a morning sit and evening sit and works to maintain awareness as best they can while performing their duties be that construction(excavation which they are knowingly killing and harming countless living beings), a fisherman, a scientist testing drugs on animals, etc.....
Killing is simply something that happens countless times a day at the gross and subtle levels.
Again... I grasp the concept of non harm and compassion for other living breathing beings, but it extremism to generate worry and concern over every action you take as a layman. Perhaps as one progresses on the path their will come a time when an individual simply cannot do their excavation job or test drugs on animals. But this will not be at the stage of sotapanna.
Sotapanna is “fishsauce” as a late Thai monk was said, and I agree. On ones first retreat if good samadhi is developed one can pass through all the stages of insight and transcend(realize Nibanna). For myself it was after my second retreat, a year of samadhi work and then one year of practicing Goenka’s technique. Then I realized nibanna and got the big question answered. Now, I’m not concerned about the rigid ness of practice. It’s all falling into place naturally. I’ve had to pull back from intense practice and focus more on work and layman family responsibilities.
It just doesn’t feel wrong to go fishing. I honestly just got back from for hours on the Atlantic Ocean, it’s very meditative out on the ocean in a 14’ fishing boat watching waves and weather and observing fear as they arise. Couple days ago police pulled up to me and I simply remained silent as they looked into my boat and conducted their investigation, then without a word spoken between either of us they simply motored off to next boat.
In past I would have been nervous and chattery, but with practice I simply keep quiet and smile.
You haven’t answered my question of, what is so wrong with killing a fish for dinner?
Or killing worms and bugs running an excavator?
Or killing potato bugs or cucumber beetles in my garden?
Mans got to sustain himself, correct?