Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
lay_guy
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Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by lay_guy »

Hi Everyone,

I have been a very devout Tibetan Buddhist for about three years now. It was really my first introduction to Buddhism as a whole and it really rocked my world. Thanks to my practice, I have become a wiser and kinder person. I've practiced ngondro every single day, but now I've come to a sort of crossroads. In learning more about the dhamma, I've come to notice how the Buddha's original teachings in the Pali canon make a lot more sense to me. It seems more like an atheistic spirituality; not relying on gods to save you or to be protected from demons.

I want to learn more, but I feel bad about dropping my practice. Even worse, I've learned Tibetan and I speak it. Tibetans have been so kind to me and inspired by my devotion to practice and appreciation of their language and culture. I've met strangers that are apparently directly connected to my lineage. It tears me apart to think about dropping my practice when people depend on me.

Finally, I'll list out some of the main issues I've had with Tibetan Buddhism.

1. Guru devotion: my lama is a great guy and I am constantly inspired by him. But is he a living Buddha? I'm not sure and I don't trust my mind enough to make that judgement.

2. Distrust of books: There is a weird culture in Tibetan Buddhism that "mere books" won't help you in practice at all. But to me, it seems like easy justification for the self-censoring of knowledge.

3. Scandal: CTR, Sogyal, to name many more. I don't even want to get into it.

4. Ethics: I hear talk from others (not my lineage) about how right/wrong are /mere concepts/ but, although in an ultimate sense this may be true, applying this to our existence is absolutely nuts. I want to strive vigilantly

5. Visualizations: What ever happened to seeing things just as they are?

If anyone, especially Aloka, can offer me any guidance on what to do, that would be very appreciated. Can I follow both paths at once?
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cappuccino
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by cappuccino »

get off the bus…


onto a motorcycle
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Ceisiwr »

lay_guy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:17 pm
You can’t follow both Theravada and Tibetan Buddhism, no. You have to choose one or the other. Take your time though. You don’t have to rush into anything. Perhaps just be a Tibetan Buddhist who is also exploring what Theravada is for a time? Lots to read up on and learn regarding Theravada. The Visuddhimagga would be a good place to start, if you aren’t familiar.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
SteRo
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by SteRo »

lay_guy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:17 pm Can I follow both paths at once?
No but you can take from both paths what appears useful or helpful to you and pursue your private "path".
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
Ontheway
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Ontheway »

Vajrayana has its root in Mulasarvastivada.

Theravada is aka Vibhajjavada.

Both are different in many aspects. You can't really practice both at the same time.

And I don't think Aloka is of Theravada either. More like modern Buddhism.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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retrofuturist
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
lay_guy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:17 pm I've come to notice how the Buddha's original teachings in the Pali canon make a lot more sense to me.
For now, I think you should just continue to read from the Pali Canon. As you do so, I suspect the answer may open up to you. The Sutta Pitaka alone would keep you gainfully occupied for quite some time.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Spiny Norman
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Spiny Norman »

lay_guy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:17 pm Hi Everyone,

I have been a very devout Tibetan Buddhist for about three years now. It was really my first introduction to Buddhism as a whole and it really rocked my world. Thanks to my practice, I have become a wiser and kinder person. I've practiced ngondro every single day, but now I've come to a sort of crossroads. In learning more about the dhamma, I've come to notice how the Buddha's original teachings in the Pali canon make a lot more sense to me. It seems more like an atheistic spirituality; not relying on gods to save you or to be protected from demons.

I want to learn more, but I feel bad about dropping my practice. Even worse, I've learned Tibetan and I speak it. Tibetans have been so kind to me and inspired by my devotion to practice and appreciation of their language and culture. I've met strangers that are apparently directly connected to my lineage. It tears me apart to think about dropping my practice when people depend on me.

Finally, I'll list out some of the main issues I've had with Tibetan Buddhism.

1. Guru devotion: my lama is a great guy and I am constantly inspired by him. But is he a living Buddha? I'm not sure and I don't trust my mind enough to make that judgement.

2. Distrust of books: There is a weird culture in Tibetan Buddhism that "mere books" won't help you in practice at all. But to me, it seems like easy justification for the self-censoring of knowledge.

3. Scandal: CTR, Sogyal, to name many more. I don't even want to get into it.

4. Ethics: I hear talk from others (not my lineage) about how right/wrong are /mere concepts/ but, although in an ultimate sense this may be true, applying this to our existence is absolutely nuts. I want to strive vigilantly

5. Visualizations: What ever happened to seeing things just as they are?

If anyone, especially Aloka, can offer me any guidance on what to do, that would be very appreciated. Can I follow both paths at once?
I was involved in Rigpa (Sogyal Rinpoche) for many years, and developed similar concerns, particularly the guru devotion issue. I subsequently got involved in Interbeing (Thich Nhat Hanh), which was like a breath of fresh air at the time.

Anyway, there is no need to feel guilty about wishing to explore Buddhism more widely.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
PeterC86
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by PeterC86 »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:26 am Greetings,
lay_guy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:17 pm I've come to notice how the Buddha's original teachings in the Pali canon make a lot more sense to me.
For now, I think you should just continue to read from the Pali Canon. As you do so, I suspect the answer may open up to you. The Sutta Pitaka alone would keep you gainfully occupied for quite some time.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Would you say the Pali Canon presents a unified teaching? If not, would you hold your advice to be a wise advice?
PeterC86
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by PeterC86 »

lay_guy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:17 pm Hi Everyone,

I have been a very devout Tibetan Buddhist for about three years now. It was really my first introduction to Buddhism as a whole and it really rocked my world. Thanks to my practice, I have become a wiser and kinder person. I've practiced ngondro every single day, but now I've come to a sort of crossroads. In learning more about the dhamma, I've come to notice how the Buddha's original teachings in the Pali canon make a lot more sense to me. It seems more like an atheistic spirituality; not relying on gods to save you or to be protected from demons.

I want to learn more, but I feel bad about dropping my practice. Even worse, I've learned Tibetan and I speak it. Tibetans have been so kind to me and inspired by my devotion to practice and appreciation of their language and culture. I've met strangers that are apparently directly connected to my lineage. It tears me apart to think about dropping my practice when people depend on me.

Finally, I'll list out some of the main issues I've had with Tibetan Buddhism.

1. Guru devotion: my lama is a great guy and I am constantly inspired by him. But is he a living Buddha? I'm not sure and I don't trust my mind enough to make that judgement.

2. Distrust of books: There is a weird culture in Tibetan Buddhism that "mere books" won't help you in practice at all. But to me, it seems like easy justification for the self-censoring of knowledge.

3. Scandal: CTR, Sogyal, to name many more. I don't even want to get into it.

4. Ethics: I hear talk from others (not my lineage) about how right/wrong are /mere concepts/ but, although in an ultimate sense this may be true, applying this to our existence is absolutely nuts. I want to strive vigilantly

5. Visualizations: What ever happened to seeing things just as they are?

If anyone, especially Aloka, can offer me any guidance on what to do, that would be very appreciated. Can I follow both paths at once?
As far as I know, there are different schools of Tibetan Buddhism, and some of them don't have this guru devotion, or the dismissal of important texts, but they do have a vinaya (ethics). See for instance the Gelug and Sakya schools. That way you also don't have to leave Tibet (assuming you live there). Right and wrong is based on judgement though, so coming from a practice of compassion, pretending to be able to distinguish right from wrong is the opposite of the Buddha's way; it is based on clinging.

As far as I know, Vajrayana is fairly close to Taoism and Zen, and therefore close to the actual Buddha's teaching. The Pali Canon is based on the Theravada doctrine, and it is a whole different animal as opposed to Vajrayana. I have made my own critical analysis of the teachings in the Pali Canon, which you can find here; viewtopic.php?p=680110#p680110. Whatever it is worth to you.

The Buddha's teaching can only be experienced for oneself, so I can advice you to listen to your own heart and mind; critically assess what you hear and read from others. Do you know the following website https://www.dharmawheel.net/? It covers Vajrayana and Mahayana schools.

Safe travels!
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retrofuturist
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Peter,
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:57 am Would you say the Pali Canon presents a unified teaching?
The Sutta Pitaka, yes.
The Vinaya Pitaka, yes.
Are those two unified? Yes, as far as I can tell.
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:57 amIf not, would you hold your advice to be a wise advice?
Good advice would be to follow the Ani Sutta, the Simsapa Sutta and the Four Great References from the Mahiparinibbana Sutta... because the man who gave those teachings was wise.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
PeterC86
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by PeterC86 »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:47 am Greetings Peter,
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:57 am Would you say the Pali Canon presents a unified teaching?
The Sutta Pitaka, yes.
The Vinaya Pitaka, yes.
Are those two unified? Yes, as far as I can tell.
Do you see the 3 marks of existence and the N8FP as a unified whole? If so, how are they unified to you?
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:57 amIf not, would you hold your advice to be a wise advice?
Good advice would be to follow the Ani Sutta, the Simsapa Sutta and the Four Great References from the Mahiparinibbana Sutta... because the man who gave those teachings was wise.

Metta,
Paul. :)
It would be, if it was certain what the Buddha's words were.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:01 am Do you see the 3 marks of existence and the N8FP as a unified whole? If so, how are they unified to you?
Yes, but we're now getting off-topic. I'll let the OP ask that, should they wish to discuss it further.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Motova
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Motova »

lay_guy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:17 pm Hi Everyone,

I have been a very devout Tibetan Buddhist for about three years now. It was really my first introduction to Buddhism as a whole and it really rocked my world. Thanks to my practice, I have become a wiser and kinder person. I've practiced ngondro every single day, but now I've come to a sort of crossroads. In learning more about the dhamma, I've come to notice how the Buddha's original teachings in the Pali canon make a lot more sense to me. It seems more like an atheistic spirituality; not relying on gods to save you or to be protected from demons.

I want to learn more, but I feel bad about dropping my practice. Even worse, I've learned Tibetan and I speak it. Tibetans have been so kind to me and inspired by my devotion to practice and appreciation of their language and culture. I've met strangers that are apparently directly connected to my lineage. It tears me apart to think about dropping my practice when people depend on me.

Finally, I'll list out some of the main issues I've had with Tibetan Buddhism.

1. Guru devotion: my lama is a great guy and I am constantly inspired by him. But is he a living Buddha? I'm not sure and I don't trust my mind enough to make that judgement.

2. Distrust of books: There is a weird culture in Tibetan Buddhism that "mere books" won't help you in practice at all. But to me, it seems like easy justification for the self-censoring of knowledge.

3. Scandal: CTR, Sogyal, to name many more. I don't even want to get into it.

4. Ethics: I hear talk from others (not my lineage) about how right/wrong are /mere concepts/ but, although in an ultimate sense this may be true, applying this to our existence is absolutely nuts. I want to strive vigilantly

5. Visualizations: What ever happened to seeing things just as they are?

If anyone, especially Aloka, can offer me any guidance on what to do, that would be very appreciated. Can I follow both paths at once?
I think if you have the time you will eventually figure it out through a process of elimination, and trial and error.

For me, I realized Tibetan Buddhism was not making me happy and I had exhausted it.

To answer the question at the end, no you cannot practice both.

I wish you good luck, the transition from Tibetan Buddhism was hard for me.
lay_guy
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by lay_guy »

motova wrote: I think if you have the time you will eventually figure it out through a process of elimination, and trial and error.
For me, I realized Tibetan Buddhism was not making me happy and I had exhausted it.
To answer the question at the end, no you cannot practice both.
I wish you good luck, the transition from Tibetan Buddhism was hard for me.
What were some hard transitions for you?
Last edited by DNS on Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed quote
Motova
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Motova »

lay_guy wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:31 pm
motova wrote: I think if you have the time you will eventually figure it out through a process of elimination, and trial and error.
For me, I realized Tibetan Buddhism was not making me happy and I had exhausted it.
To answer the question at the end, no you cannot practice both.
I wish you good luck, the transition from Tibetan Buddhism was hard for me.
What were some hard transitions for you?
Getting rid of all my Tibetan Buddhist stuff.

Committing to not thinking about Mahayana and Vajrayana.

Moving on from the physical and online Tibetan Buddhist communities.

Changing how I viewed the world.

Providing structure to my life after studying Tibetan Buddhism and Buddhism.

Managing the burnout and overstimulation and disappointment from the process.

Understanding the process enough to explain it to oneself and others, and learning how to explain what Tibetan Buddhism is without being disrespectful and destructive.

Accepting the tension and uncertainty that exists in the collective Buddhist community after one can go no further in Buddhism.
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