Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
lay_guy
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:17 pm

Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by lay_guy »

Motova wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:02 pm
lay_guy wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:31 pm
motova wrote: I think if you have the time you will eventually figure it out through a process of elimination, and trial and error.
For me, I realized Tibetan Buddhism was not making me happy and I had exhausted it.
To answer the question at the end, no you cannot practice both.
I wish you good luck, the transition from Tibetan Buddhism was hard for me.
What were some hard transitions for you?
Getting rid of all my Tibetan Buddhist stuff.

Committing to not thinking about Mahayana and Vajrayana.

Moving on from the physical and online Tibetan Buddhist communities.

Changing how I viewed the world.

Providing structure to my life after studying Tibetan Buddhism and Buddhism.

Managing the burnout and overstimulation and disappointment from the process.

Understanding the process enough to explain it to oneself and others, and learning how to explain what Tibetan Buddhism is without being disrespectful and destructive.

Accepting the tension and uncertainty that exists in the collective Buddhist community after one can go no further in Buddhism.
Are you still a Buddhist? Do you still take refuge?
Jack19990101
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:40 am

Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Jack19990101 »

You take this linage thingy too seriously, you are putting a bondage upon your freedom.

Read the books your enjoy, follow any teacher you resonate with, practice technique making progress.

Do all the above for a few years, then the linage you naturally belong to, would be obvious.
Motova
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:48 am

Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Motova »

lay_guy wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:12 pm
Motova wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:02 pm
lay_guy wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:31 pm

What were some hard transitions for you?
Getting rid of all my Tibetan Buddhist stuff.

Committing to not thinking about Mahayana and Vajrayana.

Moving on from the physical and online Tibetan Buddhist communities.

Changing how I viewed the world.

Providing structure to my life after studying Tibetan Buddhism and Buddhism.

Managing the burnout and overstimulation and disappointment from the process.

Understanding the process enough to explain it to oneself and others, and learning how to explain what Tibetan Buddhism is without being disrespectful and destructive.

Accepting the tension and uncertainty that exists in the collective Buddhist community after one can go no further in Buddhism.
Are you still a Buddhist? Do you still take refuge?
Yes, but my studies have plateaued and have been set aside mostly. I do not want to become a monk, yogi or translator in this life. Eventually, if one puts the time in one knows what to do as a layman and one's limitations. The discovery and development phase for me is basically over and Buddhism has been integrated into my daily behaviour.
Akusala
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:34 am

Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Akusala »

lay_guy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:17 pm If anyone, especially Aloka, can offer me any guidance on what to do, that would be very appreciated. Can I follow both paths at once?
To answer your question: yes, you can follow both paths at once. It has been done by many people before. Unfortunately, I cannot tell from my personal experience but I can point you to the right direction. For example, Alan Wallace who is a Tibetan Buddhist but have spent a few years in Sri Lanka to learn the Theravada tradition under Balangoda Ananda Maitreya Thero. To this date, he always spoke highly the Theravadan teachings and teach Shamatha meditation as his primary method.

I also understand that Ajahn Amaro received pointing out instructions from Tsoknyi Rinpoche and practiced Dzogchen. He documented his personal exprience in his book, Small Boat Great Mountain. I have not read this book so I cannot tell you anything more.

There are many, many IMS instructors who are traditionally Theravadin but have also took teachings from other Zen masters and Tibetan Rinpoches. For example, Guy Armstrong who was trained as a monk in Thailand and studied under several Thai monks, such as Ajahn Buddhadasa. He also received pointing out instructions from Tsoknyi Rinpoche and practiced Dzogchen.

It is probably worth contacting them and ask them directly. You never know, they may respond despite their busyness.

As for my personal advice, all of those you listed (guru devotion, etc), they are all features of Tibetan Buddhism. What about their core teachings and practice? If you still find the teachings inspirational and practices transformational (or you believe so), then you should not 'throw the baby with the water'. Perhaps, put a pause on your current practice, start to learn about the Theravada teachings and method and then you can make a decision for yourself.

Hope this helps.
lay_guy
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:17 pm

Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by lay_guy »

Luminous mind, primordial mind… same sorta thing, just different words. I thank everyone for their advice. I think I’ve sorta realized I’ve been way too uptight about stuff and I should learn from as many different lineages as possible (within the Buddhadharma for the most part)

If anyone has any experience with this same thing, lmk. Also straight up I’ve been thinking about becoming a pratimokshika at a Thai forest monestary. That’s part of what I love about Theravada is the strict adherence to Vinaya. I wish Tibetan monks would go on alms rounds, maybe then we wouldn’t get rinpoches with egos.
Akusala
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2022 11:34 am

Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Akusala »

You are spot on. The Dhamma (or the Truth) is not defined by tradition. You can also learn from various other traditions, even Christianity. For example, Christianity teaches us to 'love our neighbors as we love ourselves' or 'give unconditional love to your fellow human beings'. This is 100% compatible with the Buddha's teachings. You take what is useful - it does not mean you have to agree with everything.

In relation to Rinpoches' with egos, sooner or later, you will also find 'a few bad eggs' in the Theravada tradition, unfortunately. This should not be the reason for you to conclude that the teachings are bad or does not work. You should always evaluate the teachings against yourselves, not others. Is it useful for you? Does it bring about changes to yourselves?

All the best for your spiritual journey.
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 7797
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Aloka »

Ontheway wrote:And I don't think Aloka is of Theravada either. More like modern Buddhism.
You haven't met me and you know nothing at all about me or my personal practice, so don't presume to make assumptions, please.
Last edited by Aloka on Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 7797
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Aloka »

lay_guy wrote:If anyone, especially Aloka, can offer me any guidance on what to do, that would be very appreciated
Hi lay_guy, it wasn't a problem for me. After my Tibetan Vajrayana teacher died I started reading the teachings of Ajahn Chah on the internet, and also various suttas in the Pali Canon. I had some wonderful Tibetan teachers, but the Theravada Thai Forest Tradition seemed like a natural transition for me, especially after reading books and attending talks by Ajahn Sumedho and Ajahn Amaro at Amaravati Monastery and being able to ask them questions.

Please feel free to PM me if you want to chat about anything....and there are lots of resources on the Amaravati Monastery website which you might find helpful.

https://amaravati.org/

:anjali:
User avatar
Mild
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat May 28, 2022 12:48 pm

Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Mild »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:07 pm
lay_guy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:17 pm
You can’t follow both Theravada and Tibetan Buddhism, no. You have to choose one or the other. Take your time though. You don’t have to rush into anything. Perhaps just be a Tibetan Buddhist who is also exploring what Theravada is for a time? Lots to read up on and learn regarding Theravada. The Visuddhimagga would be a good place to start, if you aren’t familiar.
Theravada and Tibetan Buddhism have been practiced alongside of each other for hundreds of years in Thailand. The Ruesi (Thai Buddhist Rishi) got their yoga from the Tibetan Mahasiddhas. Thai Buddhist yoga is indistinguishable from Tibetan Buddhist yoga. And Thai Theravada Buddhists also worship Guanyin. (Avalokiteshvara)





My Tibetan Rinpoche also encouraged me to live at a Theravada forest temple. And my best friend at the temple had a copy of Milarepas biography on his laptop. :rofl:
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Ontheway »

Mild wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:18 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:07 pm
lay_guy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:17 pm
You can’t follow both Theravada and Tibetan Buddhism, no. You have to choose one or the other. Take your time though. You don’t have to rush into anything. Perhaps just be a Tibetan Buddhist who is also exploring what Theravada is for a time? Lots to read up on and learn regarding Theravada. The Visuddhimagga would be a good place to start, if you aren’t familiar.
Theravada and Tibetan Buddhism have been practiced alongside of each other for hundreds of years in Thailand. The Ruesi (Thai Buddhist Rishi) got their yoga from the Tibetan Mahasiddhas. Thai Buddhist yoga is indistinguishable from Tibetan Buddhist yoga. And Thai Theravada Buddhists also worship Guanyin. (Avalokiteshvara)





My Tibetan Rinpoche also encouraged me to live at a Theravada forest temple. And my best friend at the temple had a copy of Milarepas biography on his laptop. :rofl:
That's Thai Buddhists. Folk Buddhists.

Not real Buddha followers.

Real Buddha followers don't worship gods, goddesses, or mystic figures.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Motova
Posts: 81
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:48 am

Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Motova »

I thought the Bodhisattva Vows prioritized Sutras over Suttas, and the Tantric Samayas prioritized Tantras over Sutras.

If you have Bodhisattva Vows or Tantric Samayas I am pretty sure you would have to do purification practices for studying the Suttas.

What about refuge? How does one take refuge in all these traditions at once?

I guess one can explore Buddhism as a whole and have Right View, but I do not think one can maintain Refuge and practice all these traditions at once.

Also if you have all these issues with Vajrayana and you're just at Ngondro, I should warn you that your main issues might just intensify.

If you start receiving empowerments and Tantric commitments and Samayas you will understand my view much better.

If you are not happy with Tibetan Buddhism now, the commitments will might be the final blow.

I'm fairly certain anyone who tells you that you can practice all these traditions at once has no idea about Buddhism, or is just using skillful means to convert you to Mahayana.

To summarize, mixing traditions breaks vows, Samayas, or Refuge depending on which tradition one prioritizes.
User avatar
Mild
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat May 28, 2022 12:48 pm

Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Mild »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:49 am
Mild wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:18 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:07 pm

You can’t follow both Theravada and Tibetan Buddhism, no. You have to choose one or the other. Take your time though. You don’t have to rush into anything. Perhaps just be a Tibetan Buddhist who is also exploring what Theravada is for a time? Lots to read up on and learn regarding Theravada. The Visuddhimagga would be a good place to start, if you aren’t familiar.
Theravada and Tibetan Buddhism have been practiced alongside of each other for hundreds of years in Thailand. The Ruesi (Thai Buddhist Rishi) got their yoga from the Tibetan Mahasiddhas. Thai Buddhist yoga is indistinguishable from Tibetan Buddhist yoga. And Thai Theravada Buddhists also worship Guanyin. (Avalokiteshvara)





My Tibetan Rinpoche also encouraged me to live at a Theravada forest temple. And my best friend at the temple had a copy of Milarepas biography on his laptop. :rofl:
That's Thai Buddhists. Folk Buddhists.

Not real Buddha followers.

Real Buddha followers don't worship gods, goddesses, or mystic figures.
"Folk Buddhism", with gods, deities, ghosts, spirits, devas, and the occult, is real Buddhism. You practice protestant western Buddhism. The fakest of all Buddhisms :rolleye:
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by mikenz66 »

Mild wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:11 am "Folk Buddhism", with gods, deities, ghosts, spirits, devas, and the occult, is real Buddhism. You practice protestant western Buddhism. The fakest of all Buddhisms :rolleye:
Here are some interesting articles on this subject:

American (Western) Folk Buddhism by Bhante Cintita
How did it happen that Western Buddhists so quickly gained a monopoly on real Buddhism? We in the West certainly don’t seem to have gained much of a handle on Christianity over many centuries, and the average citizen of my country is pretty clueless about science., history, and almost everything else outside of popular entertainment. Yet we meditate and study Buddhist philosophy while people in Asian temples burn money and appease spirits through elaborate rituals. How were we the ones to arrive at this precise understanding of something as sophisticated and refined as Buddhist thought and practice?

There is a common kind of hubris in the West that often goes as far as trying to save Buddhism from Asian misunderstanding. I began wondering about this some years ago after many years of training in the Western American context. Often Americans who come to Buddhism are dismayed at what gets included in Buddhism in Asia, and yet American Buddhism sprang out of the Asian communities and was inspired by Asian teachers. This does not add up. What gives?
https://bhikkhucintita.wordpress.com/ho ... -buddhism/
viewtopic.php?t=12718
:heart:
Mike
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22287
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mild wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:11 am

"Folk Buddhism", with gods, deities, ghosts, spirits, devas, and the occult, is real Buddhism. You practice protestant western Buddhism. The fakest of all Buddhisms :rolleye:
I don’t think he is from the west.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Ontheway »

Mild wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:11 am
Ontheway wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:49 am
Mild wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:18 am

Theravada and Tibetan Buddhism have been practiced alongside of each other for hundreds of years in Thailand. The Ruesi (Thai Buddhist Rishi) got their yoga from the Tibetan Mahasiddhas. Thai Buddhist yoga is indistinguishable from Tibetan Buddhist yoga. And Thai Theravada Buddhists also worship Guanyin. (Avalokiteshvara)





My Tibetan Rinpoche also encouraged me to live at a Theravada forest temple. And my best friend at the temple had a copy of Milarepas biography on his laptop. :rofl:
That's Thai Buddhists. Folk Buddhists.

Not real Buddha followers.

Real Buddha followers don't worship gods, goddesses, or mystic figures.
"Folk Buddhism", with gods, deities, ghosts, spirits, devas, and the occult, is real Buddhism. You practice protestant western Buddhism. The fakest of all Buddhisms :rolleye:
Protestant Western Buddhism?

Define that.

I'm waiting.

I see that you put "Khun Paen" as your profile pic. I knew him from my Thai friends. Well, he is a sick disgusting MF 👎🏻
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Post Reply