Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Come on folks... this quarreling does nothing to assist lay_guy with his questions or predicament.

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
lay_guy
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by lay_guy »

Hey everyone. I've come to some clarity which is kinda cool. Basically, I'm fortunate to have very open-minded lamas from a tradition in Tibetan Buddhism that doesn't really focus on all the wacky deity stuff. Rather, it focuses on the luminous mind itself (if you know about Tibetan Buddhism you'll know what tradition I'm talking about). I looked into this and I sort of think that this tradition and ONLY this tradition of Tibetan Buddhism is very much compatible with all forms of Buddhism.

Whats cool is that the Samaya is sort of set by the teacher himself. And I shit you not when I say that the very serious Samaya he gave us when he gave Avalokiteshvara empowerment wasn't "do this this many times" but was instead just "be a good, compassionate, and kind person. Otherwise, you break Samaya".

I've also been given these teachings by chance based on where I was born, so I feel like I'm settled on practicing Vajrayana at least in this life. I think the main thing that's helped me is realizing that in Tibetan Buddhism, unlike other forms, the specific teacher is more important that the tradition itself. At least half of all teachers, in my opinion, are either corrupt or don't have any true realization (at least the famous ones), and you need to be really cautious. Those who are good, however, really do have the power to help you to enlightenment. This is all my opinion.

I'm going to say that I still want to practice in Theravada tradition as well. Tibetan Buddhism doesn't actually reject anything in the Pali Canon or any Theravada teachings, we just added a bunch of wacky stuff later on (I often refer to Tibetan Buddhism as wacky Buddhism). So, I'll try to live in a monastery in Thailand at some point. I wouldn't want to live in just any Tibetan Monastery because they don't usually hold to strict Vinaya.

So, to everyone here, I want to say this; we have a lot to learn from each other. I wish more Mahayanists and Vajrayanists could learn from the moral rigour, simplicity, and down-to-earth teachings of Theravada. I wish Therevada could also take the focus on Metta from Mahayana as well, as I find this as a side-show for many meditators who came from Vipassana retreats. Thanks for the advice everyone, peace!
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by lay_guy »

Motova wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:36 pm I thought the Bodhisattva Vows prioritized Sutras over Suttas, and the Tantric Samayas prioritized Tantras over Sutras.

If you have Bodhisattva Vows or Tantric Samayas I am pretty sure you would have to do purification practices for studying the Suttas.

What about refuge? How does one take refuge in all these traditions at once?

I guess one can explore Buddhism as a whole and have Right View, but I do not think one can maintain Refuge and practice all these traditions at once.

Also if you have all these issues with Vajrayana and you're just at Ngondro, I should warn you that your main issues might just intensify.

If you start receiving empowerments and Tantric commitments and Samayas you will understand my view much better.

If you are not happy with Tibetan Buddhism now, the commitments will might be the final blow.

I'm fairly certain anyone who tells you that you can practice all these traditions at once has no idea about Buddhism, or is just using skillful means to convert you to Mahayana.

To summarize, mixing traditions breaks vows, Samayas, or Refuge depending on which tradition one prioritizes.
No, the Bodhisattva vows specifically state to never neglect the "Hinayana teachings" (I hate that term but I'll use it here) over the "Mahayana teachings". It specifically states that there are no Mahayana Sutras without Sravakayana Suttas and that both were taught by the Buddha. So, why shouldn't I listen to the Buddhas words? Plus, there are sections of the Kangyur that were translated directly from Pali. Perhaps if the Tibetan translation project would have gone further, we could have translated the entire canon. Look at this:
https://thubtenchodron.org/1993/08/over ... practices/

And I never took refuge in a tradition. I took refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Also, anyone who is trying to convert someone to Mahayana is a fool and actually breaking a root vow. The 13th vow says never to cause someone to break individual liberation. Never convert someone into Mahayana. Plus, if I'm really trying to liberate all sentient beings, aren't I making my job harder? If I'm actually trying to be a Bodhisattva, I want more Arhats!
Motova
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Motova »

lay_guy wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:59 pm Hey everyone. I've come to some clarity which is kinda cool. Basically, I'm fortunate to have very open-minded lamas from a tradition in Tibetan Buddhism that doesn't really focus on all the wacky deity stuff. Rather, it focuses on the luminous mind itself (if you know about Tibetan Buddhism you'll know what tradition I'm talking about). I looked into this and I sort of think that this tradition and ONLY this tradition of Tibetan Buddhism is very much compatible with all forms of Buddhism.

Whats cool is that the Samaya is sort of set by the teacher himself. And I shit you not when I say that the very serious Samaya he gave us when he gave Avalokiteshvara empowerment wasn't "do this this many times" but was instead just "be a good, compassionate, and kind person. Otherwise, you break Samaya".

I've also been given these teachings by chance based on where I was born, so I feel like I'm settled on practicing Vajrayana at least in this life. I think the main thing that's helped me is realizing that in Tibetan Buddhism, unlike other forms, the specific teacher is more important that the tradition itself. At least half of all teachers, in my opinion, are either corrupt or don't have any true realization (at least the famous ones), and you need to be really cautious. Those who are good, however, really do have the power to help you to enlightenment. This is all my opinion.

I'm going to say that I still want to practice in Theravada tradition as well. Tibetan Buddhism doesn't actually reject anything in the Pali Canon or any Theravada teachings, we just added a bunch of wacky stuff later on (I often refer to Tibetan Buddhism as wacky Buddhism). So, I'll try to live in a monastery in Thailand at some point. I wouldn't want to live in just any Tibetan Monastery because they don't usually hold to strict Vinaya.

So, to everyone here, I want to say this; we have a lot to learn from each other. I wish more Mahayanists and Vajrayanists could learn from the moral rigour, simplicity, and down-to-earth teachings of Theravada. I wish Therevada could also take the focus on Metta from Mahayana as well, as I find this as a side-show for many meditators who came from Vipassana retreats. Thanks for the advice everyone, peace!
lay_guy wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 1:15 pm
Motova wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:36 pm I thought the Bodhisattva Vows prioritized Sutras over Suttas, and the Tantric Samayas prioritized Tantras over Sutras.

If you have Bodhisattva Vows or Tantric Samayas I am pretty sure you would have to do purification practices for studying the Suttas.

What about refuge? How does one take refuge in all these traditions at once?

I guess one can explore Buddhism as a whole and have Right View, but I do not think one can maintain Refuge and practice all these traditions at once.

Also if you have all these issues with Vajrayana and you're just at Ngondro, I should warn you that your main issues might just intensify.

If you start receiving empowerments and Tantric commitments and Samayas you will understand my view much better.

If you are not happy with Tibetan Buddhism now, the commitments will might be the final blow.

I'm fairly certain anyone who tells you that you can practice all these traditions at once has no idea about Buddhism, or is just using skillful means to convert you to Mahayana.

To summarize, mixing traditions breaks vows, Samayas, or Refuge depending on which tradition one prioritizes.
No, the Bodhisattva vows specifically state to never neglect the "Hinayana teachings" (I hate that term but I'll use it here) over the "Mahayana teachings". It specifically states that there are no Mahayana Sutras without Sravakayana Suttas and that both were taught by the Buddha. So, why shouldn't I listen to the Buddhas words? Plus, there are sections of the Kangyur that were translated directly from Pali. Perhaps if the Tibetan translation project would have gone further, we could have translated the entire canon. Look at this:
https://thubtenchodron.org/1993/08/over ... practices/

And I never took refuge in a tradition. I took refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha. Also, anyone who is trying to convert someone to Mahayana is a fool and actually breaking a root vow. The 13th vow says never to cause someone to break individual liberation. Never convert someone into Mahayana. Plus, if I'm really trying to liberate all sentient beings, aren't I making my job harder? If I'm actually trying to be a Bodhisattva, I want more Arhats!
:shock:

Good luck....
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Coëmgenu »

I think that lay_guy is referencing the "18 downfalls of the Bodhisattva" from the Ākāśagarbhasūtra. According to the Ākāśagarbha precepts, to encourage a vinaya observer to cease his observation and instead pursue bodhisattvaśīla is a pārājika. Also, to even imply to any practitioner that he will not attain Bodhi unless he discards the Śrāvakayāna for the Bodhisattvayāna is a pārājika. Furthermore, to hold that the Śrāvaka path does not lead to Bodhi and cannot extinguish the afflictions is yet another pārājika.

A pārājika in bodhisattvaśīla is quite serious. It doesn't just mean disrobing. It means that you have forsook and burned away all of your virtuous roots and must "start again," likely never attaining anything in this life.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by lay_guy »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:50 pm I think that lay_guy is referencing the "18 downfalls of the Bodhisattva" from the Ākāśagarbhasūtra. In it, to encourage a vinaya observer to cease his observation and instead pursue bodhisattvaśīla is a pārājika. Also, to even imply to any practitioner that he will not attain Bodhi unless he discards the Śrāvakayāna for the Bodhisattvayāna is a pārājika. Furthermore, to hold that the Śrāvaka path does not lead to Bodhi is yet another pārājika.

A pārājika in bodhisattvaśīla is quite serious. It doesn't just mean disrobing. It means that you have forsook and burned away all of your virtuous roots and must "start again," likely never attaining anything in this life.
Yes, I am referencing the 18 downfalls. Also thank you for noting the sutra, now I have more reading material :D
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Coëmgenu »

An old thread on them, viewtopic.php?p=434884&hilit=Downfalls#p434884

It's from 2017. I don't often agree with myself once a few years have went by. I was entertaining a very naïve "all of the scriptures are true and everything is valid" perspective inherited from Lotus Buddhism at the time, based on the famous statement from the Lotus that "All words of the many Buddhas are true." In reality, some sects have deviated, in my current opinion, and not all words ascribed to the Buddha are true.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:02 pm in my current opinion … not all words ascribed to the Buddha are true.
how will you discern what is true?


you can only have faith
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Coëmgenu »

The cringe in that old thread of mine I linked to is unreal, but it also has some good points. Like a pretentious idiot, I used to insist on using "proper" Sanskrit plurals so that everyone knew I was a smarty-pants. When you see "-āh" on the end of a Sanskrit word, just replace it with "-as" and it will be an English plural.

I wrote "dha(r/m)ma." Such cringe. OK. I can cringe in private now without metadiscussion.

:focus:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:02 pm An old thread on them, viewtopic.php?p=434884&hilit=Downfalls#p434884

It's from 2017. I don't often agree with myself once a few years have went by. I was entertaining a very naïve "all of the scriptures are true and everything is valid" perspective inherited from Lotus Buddhism at the time, based on the famous statement from the Lotus that "All words of the many Buddhas are true." In reality, some sects have deviated, in my current opinion, and not all words ascribed to the Buddha are true.
I’m interested to know which ones you think have deviated? Theravada for example, and others?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by SteRo »

lay_guy wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:59 pm Hey everyone. I've come to some clarity which is kinda cool....
Have you ever considered what drives one to speak about such private issues in public? It can be but not necessarily is interesting to investigate.

Nevermind. Just follow your "inner guide" (don't know whether there is one but I find that a nice figure of speech ;) ).
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:07 pm
lay_guy wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 10:17 pm
You can’t follow both Theravada and Tibetan Buddhism, no. You have to choose one or the other. Take your time though. You don’t have to rush into anything. Perhaps just be a Tibetan Buddhist who is also exploring what Theravada is for a time? Lots to read up on and learn regarding Theravada. The Visuddhimagga would be a good place to start, if you aren’t familiar.
Visuddhimagga,
pdf74 wrote: Or again, that motivated by craving, the purpose of which is to enjoy continued existence, is inferior;
that practiced for the purpose of one’s own deliverance is medium;
the virtue of the perfections practiced for the deliverance of all beings is superior.
So it is of three kinds as inferior, medium, and superior.
hmm
wrote:34. 10. In the second triad that practiced out of self-regard by one who regards self and desires to abandon what is unbecoming to self [14] is virtue giving precedence to self.
That practiced out of regard for the world and out of desire to ward off the censure of the world is virtue giving precedence to the world.
That practiced out of regard for the Dhamma and out of desire to honour the majesty of the Dhamma is virtue giving precedence to the Dhamma.
So it is of three kinds as giving precedence to self, and so on.
if to open wikipedia,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yana_(Buddhism) wrote: The Bodhipathapradīpa of Atisha (980-1054 CE), quoted in Gampopa's (1079-1153 CE) Jewel Ornament of Liberation[4] rendered into English by Günther, makes reference to people of three capacities:

Man is to be known in three ways:
As inferior, mediocre and excellent.[5]

He who by any means whatsoever
Provides for the pleasures of Saṃsāra
For himself alone,
Is called an inferior man.[6]

He who turns his back to the pleasures of the world
And abstains from evil deeds,
But provides only for his own peace,
Is called a mediocre man.[6]

He who seriously wants to dispel
All the misery of others,
Because in the stream of his own being he has understood the nature of misery,
Is an excellent man.[6]
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:46 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:02 pm An old thread on them, viewtopic.php?p=434884&hilit=Downfalls#p434884

It's from 2017. I don't often agree with myself once a few years have went by. I was entertaining a very naïve "all of the scriptures are true and everything is valid" perspective inherited from Lotus Buddhism at the time, based on the famous statement from the Lotus that "All words of the many Buddhas are true." In reality, some sects have deviated, in my current opinion, and not all words ascribed to the Buddha are true.
I’m interested to know which ones you think have deviated? Theravada for example, and others?
Contemporary Japanese Pure Land, Japanese Zen, any "New Kamakura" tradition, and also the Tantras IMO are more or less completely beyond the pale on terms of the Dharma. Anything that claims to shorten or abbreviate the Bodhisattva path, in short. Tantra, in general, abbreviates the entire Bodhisattva path into a ritual initiation, for instance, and frames itself as work done exclusively by Buddhas. For instance, in some Tantric Buddhism, when the guru gives you abhiṣeka, that is supposed to be equivalent to the abhiṣeka of the Buddhas of the Ten Directions, in short the community of all Samyaksaṃbuddhas acknowledging another Samyaksaṃbuddha. Obviously various Tāntrikas who've received initiation are not Samyaksaṃbuddhas, however much they may wish to redefine "Samyaksaṃbuddha" for their own ends.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Coëmgenu »

I should say "generally" above. These are quite diverse traditions to comment on in brief.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:00 pm I should say "generally" above. These are quite diverse traditions to comment on in brief.
What do you find troubling about Zen Buddhism? I’ve always got the sense that they are looking for their “true selves”.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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