Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:01 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:00 pm I should say "generally" above. These are quite diverse traditions to comment on in brief.
What do you find troubling about Zen Buddhism? I’ve always got the sense that they are looking for their “true selves”.
It's principally subitism that I am personally skeptical of and find poorly attested in the Mahāyāna sūtras. Subitism has the effect of negating the pāramitā-based progress of Bodhisattva path and collapsing the ten bhūmis into one bhūmi, if even a bhūmi. The way that Buddha-nature is often taught in Zen is such that all beings are already mystically Awakened in their saṃsāric state.

Also, the somewhat ceremonial ritual of mind-to-mind transmission in Zen is largely identical in fuction IMO to abhiṣeka in Esoteric Buddhism.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 7:32 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:01 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:00 pm I should say "generally" above. These are quite diverse traditions to comment on in brief.
What do you find troubling about Zen Buddhism? I’ve always got the sense that they are looking for their “true selves”.
It's principally subitism that I am personally skeptical of and find poorly attested in the Mahāyāna sūtras. Subitism has the effect of negating the pāramitā-based progress of Bodhisattva path and collapsing the ten bhūmis into one bhūmi, if even a bhūmi. The way that Buddha-nature is often taught in Zen is such that all beings are already mystically Awakened in their saṃsāric state.

Also, the somewhat ceremonial ritual of mind-to-mind transmission in Zen is largely identical in fuction IMO to abhiṣeka in Esoteric Buddhism.
Thanks for explaining.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
tamdrin
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by tamdrin »

I understand your predicament. I have also been involved in Tibetan Buddhism for many years and have had somewhat mixed feelings about certain aspects of it. I ended up living in Thailand for 7 years and studying and practicing Theravada closely. I also met some "Kubar Ajahns" which are like the high lamas of Thailand. I got a lot out of Theravada but I have also realized that I am not a Theravada at heart. You should see how it is practiced in Thailand too. It's mixed with a lot of spiritualist stuff (depending where you are). I do believe (even know) there have been arhats in Thailand and still are to the present day but my heart just doesn't scream out "I want to be like these guys". I suggest before you commit to giving up Tibetan Buddhism that you see what its actually like to practice Theravada in a traditional community. It's not something you can necessarily judge from reading some books and watching youtube videos.

There are no doubt karmic reasons that you got into Tibetan Buddhism and these may have to be worked out. Personally I do know there were karmic reasons for my attraction to certain Tibetan teachers from a young age. Later, with the help of a gifted Thai monk, I found out there were karmic reasons behind me having a deep affinity with Thailand, and to a certain extent Theravada Buddhism.

I guess I just want to say don't do anything in haste. If you find the practices of Tibetan Buddhism too much for now you don't have to do them. All the teachings of Buddha really start us out with mindfulness and shamatha practice. In the Thai forest tradition you need to cultivate strong mindfulness of the present moment in all aspects of your daily life. This is also the foundation for any further Buddhist practice in Mahayana or Vajrayana.

Good luck with your path :anjali:
Disciple
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Disciple »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:32 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:46 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:02 pm An old thread on them, viewtopic.php?p=434884&hilit=Downfalls#p434884

It's from 2017. I don't often agree with myself once a few years have went by. I was entertaining a very naïve "all of the scriptures are true and everything is valid" perspective inherited from Lotus Buddhism at the time, based on the famous statement from the Lotus that "All words of the many Buddhas are true." In reality, some sects have deviated, in my current opinion, and not all words ascribed to the Buddha are true.
I’m interested to know which ones you think have deviated? Theravada for example, and others?
Contemporary Japanese Pure Land, Japanese Zen, any "New Kamakura" tradition, and also the Tantras IMO are more or less completely beyond the pale on terms of the Dharma. Anything that claims to shorten or abbreviate the Bodhisattva path, in short. Tantra, in general, abbreviates the entire Bodhisattva path into a ritual initiation, for instance, and frames itself as work done exclusively by Buddhas. For instance, in some Tantric Buddhism, when the guru gives you abhiṣeka, that is supposed to be equivalent to the abhiṣeka of the Buddhas of the Ten Directions, in short the community of all Samyaksaṃbuddhas acknowledging another Samyaksaṃbuddha. Obviously various Tāntrikas who've received initiation are not Samyaksaṃbuddhas, however much they may wish to redefine "Samyaksaṃbuddha" for their own ends.
What do you disagree about Japanese Pure Land?
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mario92
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by mario92 »

I remember i started with mahayana after 1 year i left because their techings didnt worked for me because they dont have much teachings on the internet at that time. Then i moved to Theravada, this dhamma had better teachings, more wisdom. The only thing that i like is that some mahayana masters teach about karma, which is in common with theravada.
lay_guy
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by lay_guy »

tamdrin wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:12 pm I understand your predicament. I have also been involved in Tibetan Buddhism for many years and have had somewhat mixed feelings about certain aspects of it. I ended up living in Thailand for 7 years and studying and practicing Theravada closely. I also met some "Kubar Ajahns" which are like the high lamas of Thailand. I got a lot out of Theravada but I have also realized that I am not a Theravada at heart. You should see how it is practiced in Thailand too. It's mixed with a lot of spiritualist stuff (depending where you are). I do believe (even know) there have been arhats in Thailand and still are to the present day but my heart just doesn't scream out "I want to be like these guys". I suggest before you commit to giving up Tibetan Buddhism that you see what its actually like to practice Theravada in a traditional community. It's not something you can necessarily judge from reading some books and watching youtube videos.

There are no doubt karmic reasons that you got into Tibetan Buddhism and these may have to be worked out. Personally I do know there were karmic reasons for my attraction to certain Tibetan teachers from a young age. Later, with the help of a gifted Thai monk, I found out there were karmic reasons behind me having a deep affinity with Thailand, and to a certain extent Theravada Buddhism.

I guess I just want to say don't do anything in haste. If you find the practices of Tibetan Buddhism too much for now you don't have to do them. All the teachings of Buddha really start us out with mindfulness and shamatha practice. In the Thai forest tradition you need to cultivate strong mindfulness of the present moment in all aspects of your daily life. This is also the foundation for any further Buddhist practice in Mahayana or Vajrayana.

Good luck with your path :anjali:
Hi Tamdrin,

Thank you so much for this post, it really helped me.The same problems I had with Vajrayana over a year ago are still there; the issues remaining unsettled. I think now, again, one of the major reasons I see issue with Vajrayana is a lack of down to earth teachings. Everything is about energies, light, cosmic who-knows-whatever. Also now, I feel like the practices just don't work. Obivously, stuff like shamatha works well but I just don't feel like I can help others in some mystical way. Are these deities even real? I feel like I'm going through the same struggles I went through with Christianity.

Really, I think, the only remedy for this is to reject sectarianism. I started reading "Small Boat Great Mountain" which I would reccomend to anyone to read which has helped.

At this stage in my life, I am about to graduate university and (if my karma allows me) start med school after my gap year. I have a plan with my best friend to do this trip around Asia including Thailand and Laos. I'll be able to see how the Dhamma is truly practiced there for a start.
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Aloka
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Aloka »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:55 am
And I don't think Aloka is of Theravada either. More like modern Buddhism.
You have never met me, so It is extremely presumptuous of you to make personal comments on this forum about me and my beliefs and practice.

.
tamdrin
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by tamdrin »

lay_guy wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 4:10 pm
tamdrin wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:12 pm I understand your predicament. I have also been involved in Tibetan Buddhism for many years and have had somewhat mixed feelings about certain aspects of it. I ended up living in Thailand for 7 years and studying and practicing Theravada closely. I also met some "Kubar Ajahns" which are like the high lamas of Thailand. I got a lot out of Theravada but I have also realized that I am not a Theravada at heart. You should see how it is practiced in Thailand too. It's mixed with a lot of spiritualist stuff (depending where you are). I do believe (even know) there have been arhats in Thailand and still are to the present day but my heart just doesn't scream out "I want to be like these guys". I suggest before you commit to giving up Tibetan Buddhism that you see what its actually like to practice Theravada in a traditional community. It's not something you can necessarily judge from reading some books and watching youtube videos.

There are no doubt karmic reasons that you got into Tibetan Buddhism and these may have to be worked out. Personally I do know there were karmic reasons for my attraction to certain Tibetan teachers from a young age. Later, with the help of a gifted Thai monk, I found out there were karmic reasons behind me having a deep affinity with Thailand, and to a certain extent Theravada Buddhism.

I guess I just want to say don't do anything in haste. If you find the practices of Tibetan Buddhism too much for now you don't have to do them. All the teachings of Buddha really start us out with mindfulness and shamatha practice. In the Thai forest tradition you need to cultivate strong mindfulness of the present moment in all aspects of your daily life. This is also the foundation for any further Buddhist practice in Mahayana or Vajrayana.

Good luck with your path :anjali:
Hi Tamdrin,

Thank you so much for this post, it really helped me.The same problems I had with Vajrayana over a year ago are still there; the issues remaining unsettled. I think now, again, one of the major reasons I see issue with Vajrayana is a lack of down to earth teachings. Everything is about energies, light, cosmic who-knows-whatever. Also now, I feel like the practices just don't work. Obivously, stuff like shamatha works well but I just don't feel like I can help others in some mystical way. Are these deities even real? I feel like I'm going through the same struggles I went through with Christianity.

Really, I think, the only remedy for this is to reject sectarianism. I started reading "Small Boat Great Mountain" which I would reccomend to anyone to read which has helped.

At this stage in my life, I am about to graduate university and (if my karma allows me) start med school after my gap year. I have a plan with my best friend to do this trip around Asia including Thailand and Laos. I'll be able to see how the Dhamma is truly practiced there for a start.
I do think that seeing what Theravada is really like in a country such as Thailand would be helpful. You would have to spend some time in the country to really get off the tourist trail and get to know some of the monks and do some short stays at forest temples. I found my stays in forest temples and interactions with forest monks highly beneficial. Just use the Lord Buddha as your example and keep the practice simple. No need to worry about whether deities are real or not. You might be surprised to find that a lot of Thai buddhists even the top forest masters believe in the different deities from the Indian pantheon and even deities from the Mahayana such as Avalokitesvara and the others. Anyway, an important point is to relax and have some fun. Travel can help you do this.

Best wishes.
lay_guy
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:17 pm

Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by lay_guy »

tamdrin wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:09 am
lay_guy wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 4:10 pm
tamdrin wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:12 pm I understand your predicament. I have also been involved in Tibetan Buddhism for many years and have had somewhat mixed feelings about certain aspects of it. I ended up living in Thailand for 7 years and studying and practicing Theravada closely. I also met some "Kubar Ajahns" which are like the high lamas of Thailand. I got a lot out of Theravada but I have also realized that I am not a Theravada at heart. You should see how it is practiced in Thailand too. It's mixed with a lot of spiritualist stuff (depending where you are). I do believe (even know) there have been arhats in Thailand and still are to the present day but my heart just doesn't scream out "I want to be like these guys". I suggest before you commit to giving up Tibetan Buddhism that you see what its actually like to practice Theravada in a traditional community. It's not something you can necessarily judge from reading some books and watching youtube videos.

There are no doubt karmic reasons that you got into Tibetan Buddhism and these may have to be worked out. Personally I do know there were karmic reasons for my attraction to certain Tibetan teachers from a young age. Later, with the help of a gifted Thai monk, I found out there were karmic reasons behind me having a deep affinity with Thailand, and to a certain extent Theravada Buddhism.

I guess I just want to say don't do anything in haste. If you find the practices of Tibetan Buddhism too much for now you don't have to do them. All the teachings of Buddha really start us out with mindfulness and shamatha practice. In the Thai forest tradition you need to cultivate strong mindfulness of the present moment in all aspects of your daily life. This is also the foundation for any further Buddhist practice in Mahayana or Vajrayana.

Good luck with your path :anjali:
Hi Tamdrin,

Thank you so much for this post, it really helped me.The same problems I had with Vajrayana over a year ago are still there; the issues remaining unsettled. I think now, again, one of the major reasons I see issue with Vajrayana is a lack of down to earth teachings. Everything is about energies, light, cosmic who-knows-whatever. Also now, I feel like the practices just don't work. Obivously, stuff like shamatha works well but I just don't feel like I can help others in some mystical way. Are these deities even real? I feel like I'm going through the same struggles I went through with Christianity.

Really, I think, the only remedy for this is to reject sectarianism. I started reading "Small Boat Great Mountain" which I would reccomend to anyone to read which has helped.

At this stage in my life, I am about to graduate university and (if my karma allows me) start med school after my gap year. I have a plan with my best friend to do this trip around Asia including Thailand and Laos. I'll be able to see how the Dhamma is truly practiced there for a start.
I do think that seeing what Theravada is really like in a country such as Thailand would be helpful. You would have to spend some time in the country to really get off the tourist trail and get to know some of the monks and do some short stays at forest temples. I found my stays in forest temples and interactions with forest monks highly beneficial. Just use the Lord Buddha as your example and keep the practice simple. No need to worry about whether deities are real or not. You might be surprised to find that a lot of Thai buddhists even the top forest masters believe in the different deities from the Indian pantheon and even deities from the Mahayana such as Avalokitesvara and the others. Anyway, an important point is to relax and have some fun. Travel can help you do this.

Best wishes.
How long would you reccomend I stay in Thailand? The original plan was to be there for a week and work our way up from Bangkok to Vientiane (in fact, I recieved Theravada refuge for the first time from a Laos monk back in my home town). Regardless, where could I stay, how much Thai should I learn, and how long should be sufficient?
tamdrin
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by tamdrin »

lay_guy wrote: Thu Jul 06, 2023 5:53 pm
tamdrin wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 2:09 am
lay_guy wrote: Mon Jul 03, 2023 4:10 pm

Hi Tamdrin,

Thank you so much for this post, it really helped me.The same problems I had with Vajrayana over a year ago are still there; the issues remaining unsettled. I think now, again, one of the major reasons I see issue with Vajrayana is a lack of down to earth teachings. Everything is about energies, light, cosmic who-knows-whatever. Also now, I feel like the practices just don't work. Obivously, stuff like shamatha works well but I just don't feel like I can help others in some mystical way. Are these deities even real? I feel like I'm going through the same struggles I went through with Christianity.

Really, I think, the only remedy for this is to reject sectarianism. I started reading "Small Boat Great Mountain" which I would reccomend to anyone to read which has helped.

At this stage in my life, I am about to graduate university and (if my karma allows me) start med school after my gap year. I have a plan with my best friend to do this trip around Asia including Thailand and Laos. I'll be able to see how the Dhamma is truly practiced there for a start.


I do think that seeing what Theravada is really like in a country such as Thailand would be helpful. You would have to spend some time in the country to really get off the tourist trail and get to know some of the monks and do some short stays at forest temples. I found my stays in forest temples and interactions with forest monks highly beneficial. Just use the Lord Buddha as your example and keep the practice simple. No need to worry about whether deities are real or not. You might be surprised to find that a lot of Thai buddhists even the top forest masters believe in the different deities from the Indian pantheon and even deities from the Mahayana such as Avalokitesvara and the others. Anyway, an important point is to relax and have some fun. Travel can help you do this.

Best wishes.
How long would you reccomend I stay in Thailand? The original plan was to be there for a week and work our way up from Bangkok to Vientiane (in fact, I recieved Theravada refuge for the first time from a Laos monk back in my home town). Regardless, where could I stay, how much Thai should I learn, and how long should be sufficient?
I stayed for 7 years and got to know the country a bit. Thailand is a very special place with a rich culture, and long history. It is not easy penetrable to the passing farang. One week is way too short honestly. I would recommend months or years. When people ask me about going to Thailand from America I tell them one month minimum as there is a fair amount of jet lag... it really takes time to get used to the place and settle into the routine and the Thai pace of life. Learn as much Thai as you can, it will be a great blessing to your life and will come in handy in unexpected ways.
tamdrin
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by tamdrin »

If you want to talk more over private message don't hesitate to contact me.
Ontheway
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Ontheway »

Just leave it. Mantras, tantras, fire/smoke offerings, Bodhisattva worships, rite and rituals... These things are just another form of attachment.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
auto
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2023 2:09 pm Just leave it. Mantras, tantras, fire/smoke offerings, Bodhisattva worships, rite and rituals... These things are just another form of attachment.
*in your opinion.
Ontheway
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Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by Ontheway »

auto wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2023 2:26 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2023 2:09 pm Just leave it. Mantras, tantras, fire/smoke offerings, Bodhisattva worships, rite and rituals... These things are just another form of attachment.
*in your opinion.
Yes, my opinion is true here.

Reciting mantras like "Om Mani padme Hum" with Asian musics don't really accord to Noble Eightfold Path. Fire/smoke offering has no significance is attaining maggaphala. Bodhisattva worships? Simply worshipping Bodhisattva will not bring up maggaphala too. Rites and rituals? Clinging to rites and rituals is one of the samyojanas. Nuff said.

By the way, are you still entertaining Self view?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
auto
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Scared on Leaving Vajrayana and Staying In It

Post by auto »

Ontheway wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2023 3:29 pm Reciting mantras like "Om Mani padme Hum" with Asian musics don't really accord to Noble Eightfold Path. Fire/smoke offering has no significance is attaining maggaphala. Bodhisattva worships? Simply worshipping Bodhisattva will not bring up maggaphala too. Rites and rituals? Clinging to rites and rituals is one of the samyojanas. Nuff said.
What you list there is showing what you are interested in overall whatever religion and just find Theravada the most authentic. I for example have not even look up those things. I have nose for gnosis.
Ontheway wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2023 3:29 pm By the way, are you still entertaining Self view?
yes, if you mean focusing on being aware. Its one part of the cultivation i do.
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