3 marks of existence vs N8FP

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PeterC86
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3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by PeterC86 »

Do you think that the 3 marks of existence can be unified with the N8FP? If so, how?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by Ceisiwr »

The NEFP is conditioned and so it is impermanent, dukkha and not-self.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
PeterC86
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by PeterC86 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:15 pm The NEFP is conditioned and so it is impermanent, dukkha and not-self.
Oké, but what does the NEFP refer to if it is impermanent, dukkha and not-self?
Spiny Norman
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by Spiny Norman »

PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:15 pm The NEFP is conditioned and so it is impermanent, dukkha and not-self.
Oké, but what does the NEFP refer to if it is impermanent, dukkha and not-self?
The NEFP is a path designed to liberate one from dukkha.
Could you clearly articulate the contradiction you see? Is it connected to anatta?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
PeterC86
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by PeterC86 »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:32 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:15 pm The NEFP is conditioned and so it is impermanent, dukkha and not-self.
Oké, but what does the NEFP refer to if it is impermanent, dukkha and not-self?
The NEFP is a path designed to liberate one from dukkha.
How would this go if everything is not-self?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by Ceisiwr »

PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:15 pm The NEFP is conditioned and so it is impermanent, dukkha and not-self.
Oké, but what does the NEFP refer to if it is impermanent, dukkha and not-self?
Right View, wholesome intentions all the way down to Jhana.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Spiny Norman
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by Spiny Norman »

PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:57 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:32 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:19 pm

Oké, but what does the NEFP refer to if it is impermanent, dukkha and not-self?
The NEFP is a path designed to liberate one from dukkha.
How would this go if everything is not-self?
Nibbana is not "me" or "mine". It is beyond all identities.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
PeterC86
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by PeterC86 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:02 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:15 pm The NEFP is conditioned and so it is impermanent, dukkha and not-self.
Oké, but what does the NEFP refer to if it is impermanent, dukkha and not-self?
Right View, wholesome intentions all the way down to Jhana.
What do these words refer to if everything is not-self?
PeterC86
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by PeterC86 »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:08 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:57 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:32 pm

The NEFP is a path designed to liberate one from dukkha.
How would this go if everything is not-self?
Nibbana is not "me" or "mine". It is beyond all identities.
I don't follow.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by Ceisiwr »

PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:09 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:02 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:19 pm

Oké, but what does the NEFP refer to if it is impermanent, dukkha and not-self?
Right View, wholesome intentions all the way down to Jhana.
What do these words refer to if everything is not-self?
According to Theravada real existents. According to Mahayana, or strands of Mahayana I’m familiar with, mind made concepts. Either way they are dhammas that exist in some form.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Nicolas
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by Nicolas »

This could be seen as relevant:
Nandikkhaya Sutta (SN 22.51) wrote: At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu sees as impermanent form which is actually impermanent: that is his right view. Seeing rightly, he experiences revulsion. With the destruction of delight comes the destruction of lust; with the destruction of lust comes the destruction of delight. With the destruction of delight and lust the mind is liberated and is said to be well liberated.

“A bhikkhu sees as impermanent feeling which is actually impermanent … perception which is actually impermanent … volitional formations which are actually impermanent … consciousness which is actually impermanent: that is his right view…. With the destruction of delight and lust the mind is liberated and is said to be well liberated.”
as well as this:
Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta (MN 10) wrote: And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? [...] Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body.
[...]
And how does a monk remain focused on feelings in & of themselves? [...] Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to feelings, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to feelings, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to feelings.
[...]
And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? [...] Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the mind, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the mind, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the mind.
[...]
And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves? [...] Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to mental qualities, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to mental qualities, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to mental qualities.
[...]
And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself—ardent, alert, & mindful—subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves… the mind in & of itself… mental qualities in & of themselves—ardent, alert, & mindful—subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness.
PeterC86
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by PeterC86 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:13 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:09 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:02 pm

Right View, wholesome intentions all the way down to Jhana.
What do these words refer to if everything is not-self?
According to Theravada real existents. According to Mahayana, or strands of Mahayana I’m familiar with, mind made concepts. Either way they are dhammas that exist in some form.
How can they refer to dhammas if everything is not-self?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by Ceisiwr »

PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:24 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:13 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:09 pm

What do these words refer to if everything is not-self?
According to Theravada real existents. According to Mahayana, or strands of Mahayana I’m familiar with, mind made concepts. Either way they are dhammas that exist in some form.
How can they refer to dhammas if everything is not-self?
I don’t accept the proposition that something being empty means it doesn’t exist at all.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Spiny Norman
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:35 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:24 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:13 pm

According to Theravada real existents. According to Mahayana, or strands of Mahayana I’m familiar with, mind made concepts. Either way they are dhammas that exist in some form.
How can they refer to dhammas if everything is not-self?
I don’t accept the proposition that something being empty means it doesn’t exist at all.
Indeed. It's about conditional or dependent existence. "When this arises, that arises.."
Buddha save me from new-agers!
asahi
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by asahi »

N8FP is the formula to realise the 3 marks .
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