3 marks of existence vs N8FP

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PeterC86
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by PeterC86 »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:57 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:54 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:34 pm

In logic, it certainly can.
It certainly cannot, because for logic to make sense, things need to be defined, for which one requires/attributes an essence.
But as you probably consider logic to be mere convention, then you have cast yourself adrift in a world of meaningless interactions where nothing can be true or can ever be substantiated. I've seen this before with posters who are pushed back into solipsistic nonsense like this. It might be gratifying for them if they are here to get attention or troll people or to have the last word, but it rarely ends well. Good luck, Peter, in an essence-less, meaningless, unverifiable sort of way... :anjali:
It is not solipsistic nonsense, as even the mind cannot be known, therefore; unconditioned. Good luck with trying whatever it is that you're trying!
No, attributes are not essence. Apparently you still haven't grasped the distinction between phenomena and noumena.
Even attributes need to be defined.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by Coëmgenu »

The thread is based upon a series of severely mistaken assumptions all related to a fundamental misunderstanding of anattā. It's been claimed, in a separate but highly-related thread, that anattā excludes the possibility of discernment of difference. Here, it is argued that the act of "defining" is in-and-of-itself essentialism. There is no support put forward to defend this hasty and foolhardy stance. The OP has yet to substantiate any of his wild claims about the ramifications of anattā and the relation of anattā and essencelessness.

With such misunderstandings of anattā, one of the three marks, it's no wonder the OP sees them as contradictory to the eightfold path.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
PeterC86
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by PeterC86 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:23 pm Based on the textual evidence, the Buddha didn't think he made up the NEFP. Rather he claimed to have discovered it. I don't think Venerable Nāgārjuna thought the path was "made up" either. That the NEFP and dhammas are just things we make up is your claim alone. A claim with no substance.
You're again resorting to 'the Buddha said'.

This didn't answer my question. Why does a lack of essence or base mean an argument cannot be made? You are currently arguing with me and you claim there is no base or essence behind the words. You are therefore contradicting yourself.
Because an argument needs to be based on logic, and without attributing a certain essence to words, a logical argument cannot be made, because words would have no meaning. So our way of communicating is based on that we attribute a certain shared essence to words, mostly governed by dictionaries. But this essence that we attribute is merely conventional, and merely based on the assumption that phenomena are self, which could then be defined/described. So if everything is not-self, there is no base for an argument, as there is no underlying essence behind the words, therefore words don't have an ultimate meaning.
PeterC86
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by PeterC86 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:23 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:19 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:47 pm

Why then do you keep replying?
He was asking a question.
You keep making arguments, yet you say you have no argument to make. That being so, you shouldn't be replying.
You were asking a question. :shrug:
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mikenz66
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by mikenz66 »

PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:23 pm You're again resorting to 'the Buddha said'.
That's because this is a Buddhist discussion group, and that's what we discuss. For many of us, the discussion informs our practice, but discussing details of practice with random people on the Internet is not usually very productive - from my experience it requires an environment of trust, kindness , and common ground for such discussions to be worthwhile.

:heart:
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PeterC86
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by PeterC86 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:00 pm The thread is based upon a series of severely mistaken assumptions all related to a fundamental misunderstanding of anattā. It's been claimed, in a separate but highly-related thread, that anattā excludes the possibility of discernment of difference.
Yes, this is an implication of what is being discussed here, because difference has to be attributed to something. So although we have an experience that is changing, we cannot atttribute this changing or difference to certain phenomena, as this would already be attributing something as this, and something else as that.
Here, it is argued that the act of "defining" is in-and-of-itself essentialism. There is no support put forward to defend this hasty and foolhardy stance. The OP has yet to substantiate any of his wild claims about the ramifications of anattā and the relation of anattā and essencelessness.
No, an argument has to be made for the existence, possibility of discernment, of phenomena, and until then, they cannot be said to exist or non-exist, both exist and non-exist, neither exist nor non-exist.
With such misunderstandings of anattā, one of the three marks, it's no wonder the OP sees them as contradictory to the eightfold path.
The burden of proof of unity lies with those who hold that they are unified.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by Coëmgenu »

PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:12 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:00 pmHere, it is argued that the act of "defining" is in-and-of-itself essentialism. There is no support put forward to defend this hasty and foolhardy stance. The OP has yet to substantiate any of his wild claims about the ramifications of anattā and the relation of anattā and essencelessness.
No, an argument has to be made for the existence, possibility of discernment, of phenomena, and until then, they cannot be said to exist or non-exist, both exist and non-exist, neither exist nor non-exist.
You're pretty free-wheeling with redefining your arguments and terms on the fly, sometimes to something that is completely contradictory to a previously-held view presented only a few posts ago. So where exactly did you supposedly argue for this "possibility" of discernment?
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:12 pmThe burden of proof of unity lies with those who hold that they are unified.
In order for you to understand any proofs of that nature, you'll first have to actually learn what "anattā" means. Then we can start with anicca, etc. At present, you are still stumbling around "essences" while trying and failing to define anattā.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
pegembara
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by pegembara »

TLDR the entire thread.

The 3 marks are there regardless of whether a Buddha is around or not but the Buddha is the one to point to them. Once they are fully understood/realized, the result is liberation. The N8FP is the formulation that leads to liberation. Even without the N8FP, the 3 characteristics of existence are always in operation.
"Monks, whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All processes are inconstant.

"The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, & makes it plain: All processes are inconstant.

"Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All processes are stressful.

"The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, & makes it plain: All processes are stressful.

"Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All phenomena are not-self.[1]

"The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, & makes it plain: All phenomena are not-self."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by Spiny Norman »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:00 pm The thread is based upon a series of severely mistaken assumptions all related to a fundamental misunderstanding of anattā. It's been claimed, in a separate but highly-related thread, that anattā excludes the possibility of discernment of difference. Here, it is argued that the act of "defining" is in-and-of-itself essentialism. There is no support put forward to defend this hasty and foolhardy stance. The OP has yet to substantiate any of his wild claims about the ramifications of anattā and the relation of anattā and essencelessness.

With such misunderstandings of anattā, one of the three marks, it's no wonder the OP sees them as contradictory to the eightfold path.
Yes, it's all a bit of a muddle. Failing to understand the distinction between anatta, shunyata and "essences", failing to understand the distinction between phenomena and nounena, failing to understand the distinction between defining and describing, and so on.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by Spiny Norman »

PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:23 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:23 pm Based on the textual evidence, the Buddha didn't think he made up the NEFP. Rather he claimed to have discovered it. I don't think Venerable Nāgārjuna thought the path was "made up" either. That the NEFP and dhammas are just things we make up is your claim alone. A claim with no substance.
You're again resorting to 'the Buddha said'.

This didn't answer my question. Why does a lack of essence or base mean an argument cannot be made? You are currently arguing with me and you claim there is no base or essence behind the words. You are therefore contradicting yourself.
Because an argument needs to be based on logic, and without attributing a certain essence to words, a logical argument cannot be made, because words would have no meaning. So our way of communicating is based on that we attribute a certain shared essence to words, mostly governed by dictionaries. But this essence that we attribute is merely conventional, and merely based on the assumption that phenomena are self, which could then be defined/described. So if everything is not-self, there is no base for an argument, as there is no underlying essence behind the words, therefore words don't have an ultimate meaning.
Being able to describe something doesn't mean it has independent self-hood or "essence".
"Form is only emptiness" (Heart Sutra) doesn't mean we can't describe form, it means that form doesn't have independent existence - it's conditional.
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pegembara
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by pegembara »

Because an argument needs to be based on logic, and without attributing a certain essence to words, a logical argument cannot be made, because words would have no meaning. So our way of communicating is based on that we attribute a certain shared essence to words, mostly governed by dictionaries. But this essence that we attribute is merely conventional, and merely based on the assumption that phenomena are self, which could then be defined/described. So if everything is not-self, there is no base for an argument, as there is no underlying essence behind the words, therefore words don't have an ultimate meaning.
Being able to describe something doesn't mean it has independent self-hood or "essence".
"Form is only emptiness" (Heart Sutra) doesn't mean we can't describe form, it means that form doesn't have independent existence - it's conditional.
The solar system is a collection of the sun and planets.
A country is a collection of states.
A tree is a collection of roots, a trunk, branches, leaves, and flowers.
A person is a collection of five aggregates
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There is nothing greater than name,
All have gone under the sway
Of this one thing called name."

"Beings are conscious of what can be named,
They are established on the nameable,
By not comprehending the nameable things,
They come under the yoke of death."
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by SteRo »

PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:11 pm Do you think that the 3 marks of existence can be unified with the N8FP? If so, how?
Strange question. The attainment of N8FP depends on contemplation of the 3 marks according to doctrine.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by Coëmgenu »

Here is but one way to relate the three to the eight, and it is through the four. Three marks, an eightfold path, and four truths.

What is anicca is anattā, and is also dukkha. This is called "the three marks of existence." If this comes into contention, a sutta can easily be found. If some facile objection of "You are just playing 'Buddha says'" comes about, the three marks of existence, the eightfold path, and the noble truths all fall under the purview of "what the Buddha says" anyways.

Now, we just look at the four nobles truths. 1) Dukkha, 2) the origination of dukkha, 3) the cessation of dukkha, and 4) the path to the cessation of dukkha. What is the path to the cessation of dukkha? The eightfold path is. None of this business about the possibility or impossibility of defining, describing, imparting essences, or whatnot that has been brought up as objections to their mutual concord plays a part in this that I consider a relatively direct and uncontrived correspondence.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Spiny Norman
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by Spiny Norman »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:47 am
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:11 pm Do you think that the 3 marks of existence can be unified with the N8FP? If so, how?
Strange question. The attainment of N8FP depends on contemplation of the 3 marks according to doctrine.
Yes, it is a strange question, and seems to stem from a misunderstanding of anatta.

Contemplation of the 3 marks is an aspect of practice in the N8FP, so that is a kind of "unification" I suppose. :shrug:
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Re: 3 marks of existence vs N8FP

Post by asahi »

Why does someone need to be certained if N8FP is in unified with 3 marks ? That is totally unnnecessary . You just walk on the path , along the road you will find out for yourself whether it is so or not . Simple .
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