What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Do you support abortion

1. Yes
8
20%
2. No
33
80%
 
Total votes: 41

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DNS
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by DNS »

thepea wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:11 pm I’m saying as was illustrated by others it’s not killing, it’s destruction, taking of last breath.
Destruction is mutilation which contains cruelty.
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You're hopeless. You should really read and study the Suttas. No, it's just you, really, it's just you that thinks First Precept is not about killing.
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Goofaholix
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by Goofaholix »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:11 pm Science doesn’t tell us when a human being begins, when consciousness is in the womb. The underlying assumption in the article is emergentism. Emergentism as it applies to mind isn’t a scientific idea. It’s a philosophical one.
The point is it's not necessarily at conception. Sentience is defined as "able to perceive or feel things", if we are going to use that as a definition of a being that should not be killed we need to think about how this applies to a fetus.

Unlike much of the pro-life lobby we don't have the luxury on falling back on "God says so".
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by thepea »

Goofaholix wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:03 pm
DNS wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:41 pm Killing does breach the precept, it is what the First Precept is about; to not kill any sentient being.
At what point does a fetus become sentient though? I found a medical article that suggests 30 weeks. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 9209161911

This doesn't necessarily make the decision, one way or the other, more or less problematic.
Sentience is not the correct way to look at this.
It’s simply a matter of sin(greed/fear of loss) if you sin you break the precepts.
A monastic cannot get pregnant so it’s not a question of jhana. It’s about sin and whether one can abort without sin or with sin. This is individual to each and the kammic weight.
I doubt you can abort sin free.
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Goofaholix wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:23 pm
The point is it's not necessarily at conception. Sentience is defined as "able to perceive or feel things", if we are going to use that as a definition of a being that should not be killed we need to think about how this applies to a fetus.
Emergentism, which adheres to a physicalism, would have that tied to the development of neurons. This however is not science. It’s philosophy.
Unlike much of the pro-life lobby we don't have the luxury on falling back on "God says so".
There are atheist pro-lifers you know.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Goofaholix wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:23 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:11 pm Science doesn’t tell us when a human being begins, when consciousness is in the womb. The underlying assumption in the article is emergentism. Emergentism as it applies to mind isn’t a scientific idea. It’s a philosophical one.
The point is it's not necessarily at conception. Sentience is defined as "able to perceive or feel things", if we are going to use that as a definition of a being that should not be killed we need to think about how this applies to a fetus.

Unlike much of the pro-life lobby we don't have the luxury on falling back on "God says so".
When there is a descent of nāmarūpa, it is not merely a descent of rūpa. Traditional Buddhist embryology states that once the fluids of the man and the fluids of the woman have mixed, there is a descent of nāmarūpa, and the internal liquids coagulate. This coagulation is "the embryo." Traditional Buddhist embryology is also "supernatural," as a secular person would see things.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by Goofaholix »

thepea wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:24 pm I doubt you can abort sin free.
Putting aside that "sin" is a judeo christian concept that doesn't translate well in a Buddhist context, yes I'd agree that there are always going to be kammic consequences with an abortion. (There will also be kammic consequences with eating chicken eggs by the way, which are essentially abortions in a shell).

There will also be kammic consequences with adding a second mistake to the first mistake and ruining ones life bringing and bringing an unwanted child into a world full of Dukkha.

Somebody in this situation needs needs to weigh these things up and make a decision, I don't want the kammic consequences of telling them what to do.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by User13866 »

thepea wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:21 pm The chickens we have lay eggs unfertilized as we do not have a rooster as we are not breeding currently.
It just what they do, they lay eggs and scratch for bugs.
I take cate of them and collect the eggs they do not seem to mind at all.
So you know what is a female afterall;)
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by thepea »

User13866 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:33 am
thepea wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:21 pm The chickens we have lay eggs unfertilized as we do not have a rooster as we are not breeding currently.
It just what they do, they lay eggs and scratch for bugs.
I take cate of them and collect the eggs they do not seem to mind at all.
So you know what is a female afterall;)
Yes, but we were discussing woman which is specific to human beings. Female can be a plant, which is not a woman.
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by robertk »

I moved some posts about the kamma of eating eggs to here: viewtopic.php?t=43270
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by robertk »

Goofaholix wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:03 pm
DNS wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:41 pm Killing does breach the precept, it is what the First Precept is about; to not kill any sentient being.
At what point does a fetus become sentient though? I found a medical article that suggests 30 weeks. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 9209161911

This doesn't necessarily make the decision, one way or the other, more or less problematic.
In the Majjhima nikaya, the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta: Sutta 38
26. "Bhikkhus, the conception of an embryo in a womb takes
place through the union of three things.410 Here, there is the
union of the mother and father, but it is not the mother's season,
and the being to be reborn is not present - in this case there is
no [266] conception of an embryo in a womb. Here, there is the
union of the mother and father, and it is the mother's season,
but the being to be reborn is not present - in this case too there
is no conception of an embryo in a womb. But when there is the
union of the mother and father, and it is the mother's season,
and the being to be reborn is present, through the union of these
three things the conception of an embryo in a womb takes place.
27. "The mother then carries the embryo in her womb for nine
or ten months with much anxiety, as a heavy burden
. Then, at
the end of nine or ten months, the mother gives birth with much
anxiety, as a heavy burden. Then, when the child is born, she
nourishes it with her own blood; for the mother's breast-milk is
called blood in the Noble One's Discipline.
We see that the time the being spends in the womb is 9 or 10 months according to the Buddha.
So the Buddha thought that the new life began soon after conception.
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by Goofaholix »

robertk wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:42 am We see that the time the being spends in the womb is 9 or 10 months according to the Buddha.
So the Buddha thought that the new life began soon after conception.
From that point of view it doesn't seem unreasonable to say the "First Precept is about; to not kill any sentient or reborn but not yet sentient being".
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by befriend »

Buddha says in the karaniya metta sutta "wether they are mighty weak tall or short seen or unseen living near or far away those born and to be born May all beings be at ease" I don't think it's even a religious argument its anti nature, I am pro life even in the case of rape incest or physiological abnormalities of the unborn. Not because I'm a Buddhist but because it's better to suffer from an unwanted child than to have abortion on your conscience. I don't think any woman would have a child then think I wish this kid was never born. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by thepea »

robertk wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:42 am
Goofaholix wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:03 pm
DNS wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:41 pm Killing does breach the precept, it is what the First Precept is about; to not kill any sentient being.
At what point does a fetus become sentient though? I found a medical article that suggests 30 weeks. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 9209161911

This doesn't necessarily make the decision, one way or the other, more or less problematic.
In the Majjhima nikaya, the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta: Sutta 38
26. "Bhikkhus, the conception of an embryo in a womb takes
place through the union of three things.410 Here, there is the
union of the mother and father, but it is not the mother's season,
and the being to be reborn is not present - in this case there is
no [266] conception of an embryo in a womb. Here, there is the
union of the mother and father, and it is the mother's season,
but the being to be reborn is not present - in this case too there
is no conception of an embryo in a womb. But when there is the
union of the mother and father, and it is the mother's season,
and the being to be reborn is present, through the union of these
three things the conception of an embryo in a womb takes place.
27. "The mother then carries the embryo in her womb for nine
or ten months with much anxiety, as a heavy burden
. Then, at
the end of nine or ten months, the mother gives birth with much
anxiety, as a heavy burden. Then, when the child is born, she
nourishes it with her own blood; for the mother's breast-milk is
called blood in the Noble One's Discipline.
We see that the time the being spends in the womb is 9 or 10 months according to the Buddha.
So the Buddha thought that the new life began soon after conception.
This sutta is not correct.

“The union of the mother and father but the mother is not in season.”
It should read:
The union of the man and woman but the woman is not in season.
There is no conception at this time so no parents(mother/father).
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by robertk »

Goofaholix wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:12 am
robertk wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:42 am We see that the time the being spends in the womb is 9 or 10 months according to the Buddha.
So the Buddha thought that the new life began soon after conception.
From that point of view it doesn't seem unreasonable to say the "First Precept is about; to not kill any sentient or reborn but not yet sentient being".
Could you explain what that means (especially in relation to abortion)?
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by Goofaholix »

robertk wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:42 am Could you explain what that means (especially in relation to abortion)?
The discussion was about at what age fetus is sentient so killing one would break the first precept, the passage you posted appeared to indicate that rebirth happens at conception presumably to indicate sentience isn't the only factor.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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