What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Do you support abortion

1. Yes
8
20%
2. No
33
80%
 
Total votes: 41

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robertk
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by robertk »

Goofaholix wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:58 am
robertk wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:42 am Could you explain what that means (especially in relation to abortion)?
The discussion was about at what age fetus is sentient so killing one would break the first precept, the passage you posted appeared to indicate that rebirth happens at conception presumably to indicate sentience isn't the only factor.
I still don't get it? As I read it there is a living being from the time of conception - when consciousness first arises , (roughly 9 or 10 months before the baby is delivered).
So destroying a foetus even at a relatively early stage would be killing.
Is that correct?
SteRo
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by SteRo »

no_mind_redux wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:48 pm (According to you) What is the Buddhist view of abortion?
There is none because there isn't any mention of abortion in the doctrine.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by Coëmgenu »

The tricky thing is, from a traditional Buddhist POV, there is no such moment when the embryo/foetus is utterly insentient.
Once the function of linking two existences has been performed by the paṭisandhi, consciousness in the newly formed embryo immediately goes into the bhavaṅga state. This flows along in the new existence with infinite interruptions by various stimuli and ends as the cuti citta of that particular existence.
(Dr. N.K.G. Mendis, The Abhidhamma in Practice)
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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robertk
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by robertk »

Visuddhimgga VIII
30. Herein, firstly the span has no sign because there is no definition such as:
Just so much must be lived, no more than that. For beings [die in the various
stages of the embryo, namely], at the time of the kalala
, of the abbuda, of the pesi, of
the ghana, at one month gone, two months gone, three months gone, four months
gone, five months gone … ten months gone, and on the occasion of coming out
of the womb. And after that they die this side or the other of the century.


XVII
1
52. But when that minimal amount arises in the two kinds of generation
termed egg-born and womb-born, it amounts to no more than a drop of cream of
ghee on a single fibre of new-born [kid’s] wool, and it is known as the “embryo
in the first stage” (S I 206).
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robertk
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by robertk »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:26 am
no_mind_redux wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:48 pm (According to you) What is the Buddhist view of abortion?
There is none because there isn't any mention of abortion in the doctrine.
https://ia601609.us.archive.org/4/items ... avagga.pdf

THE BOOK
OF THE DISCIPLINE
(VINAYA-PI'tAKA)
VOL. IV
(MAHA VAGGA)
TRANSLATED BY
LB. HORNER, M.A.
"When a monk is ordained he should not intentionally
deprive a living thing of life, even if it is only an ant. 2 Whatever monk deprives a human being of life even down to causing
abortion, 3 he becomes not a (true) recluse, not a son of the
Sakyans. As a flat stone, broken in half, becomes (scmething)
not to be put together again, even so a monk, having intentionally deprived a human being of life, becomes not a (true)
recluse, not a son of the Sakyans. 4 This is a thing not to be
done by you as long as life lasts
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Goofaholix
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by Goofaholix »

robertk wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:06 am So destroying a foetus even at a relatively early stage would be killing.
Is that correct?
Killing is killing.

DNS pointed out that the First Precept is about not killing any sentient beings, and I raised the question at what point does a fetus become sentient.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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robertk
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by robertk »

Goofaholix wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:44 am
robertk wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:06 am So destroying a foetus even at a relatively early stage would be killing.
Is that correct?
Killing is killing.

DNS pointed out that the First Precept is about not killing any sentient beings, and I raised the question at what point does a fetus become sentient.
:anjali:
asahi
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by asahi »

If you demolish just one pillar of a house before it becomes a completed house , it will never become a house . The baby to be says , so help me Lord .
No bashing No gossiping
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robertk
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by robertk »

Visuddhimagga XVI
When the mother has an abortion, the pain that arises in him through the cutting and rending in the place where the pain arises that is not fit to be seen even by friends and intimates and companions—this is the suffering rooted in abortion.
thepea
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by thepea »

robertk wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:29 am Visuddhimagga XVI
When the mother has an abortion, the pain that arises in him through the cutting and rending in the place where the pain arises that is not fit to be seen even by friends and intimates and companions—this is the suffering rooted in abortion.
Who is “him” the mother or the aborted?
Rending seems to imply the two are one. That this is one being. Some argue the mothers body is hers to choose what to do with and the fetus is it’s own body with rights. This seems to imply they are one.
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robertk
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by robertk »

thepea wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:32 pm
robertk wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:29 am Visuddhimagga XVI
When the mother has an abortion, the pain that arises in him through the cutting and rending in the place where the pain arises that is not fit to be seen even by friends and intimates and companions—this is the suffering rooted in abortion.
Who is “him” the mother or the aborted?
Rending seems to imply the two are one. That this is one being. Some argue the mothers body is hers to choose what to do with and the fetus is it’s own body with rights. This seems to imply they are one.
The rending is the cutting out of the fetus where it is connected to the mother.

It is true that some proponents of abortion suggest that while the child is still connected to the mother that it is fine to rip it out - it is like exorcising a tumor, merely an uncomplicated medical procedure.
That is not the Buddhist position as described in the texts however.
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by DNS »

Here is a previous poll we had, with many more options than just 'yes' or 'no.'
viewtopic.php?t=30245

Interesting though, that when it's put as just yes or no, as with this thread, the No's are much higher percentage.
thepea
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:51 pm Here is a previous poll we had, with many more options than just 'yes' or 'no.'
viewtopic.php?t=30245

Interesting though, that when it's put as just yes or no, as with this thread, the No's are much higher percentage.
What is the definition of abortion that we are discussing?
The medical procedure, the mothers choice to medical procedure or the miscarriage(coat hanger/pill).

If it’s the mothers choice to a procedure, then this is very much like the buddhists who choose to eat animal flesh but choose to have others do the killing for them.

In one sense it a non foul as not the one doing the killing, but in the other case a foul as choosing to kill but not doing the killing oneself.
Seems a slippery slope.
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by DNS »

thepea wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:20 pm If it’s the mothers choice to a procedure, then this is very much like the buddhists who choose to eat animal flesh but choose to have others do the killing for them.
Apparently, the mother would still bear some responsibility, according to buddhism:

Five factors are necessary to fulfil the offence of killing living beings (pāṇātipāta).
1. It is a living being.
2. One must know that it is a living being.
3. There must be the intention to kill.
4. A verbal or physical effort must be made to kill that being.
5. The living being must die due to that effort.
http://www.aimwell.org/problems.html
Notice #4 above, a verbal or physical effort must be made, which a pregnant woman does, when she gives the okay to the doctor to do the procedure. Therefore, even if not done by your hand, but by an order, then there is still kammic responsibility for the killing.
thepea
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Re: What is the Buddhist view of abortion?

Post by thepea »

DNS wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:44 pm
thepea wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 4:20 pm If it’s the mothers choice to a procedure, then this is very much like the buddhists who choose to eat animal flesh but choose to have others do the killing for them.
Apparently, the mother would still bear some responsibility, according to buddhism:

Five factors are necessary to fulfil the offence of killing living beings (pāṇātipāta).
1. It is a living being.
2. One must know that it is a living being.
3. There must be the intention to kill.
4. A verbal or physical effort must be made to kill that being.
5. The living being must die due to that effort.
http://www.aimwell.org/problems.html
Notice #4 above, a verbal or physical effort must be made, which a pregnant woman does, when she gives the okay to the doctor to do the procedure. Therefore, even if not done by your hand, but by an order, then there is still kammic responsibility for the killing.
What sutta is this?
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