is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

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frank k
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is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by frank k »

Thread from pali sub,
viewtopic.php?t=43259

hoping to engage the broader Theravada community to collect scriptural references (commentary, subcommentary, abhidhamma) claiming that 'ariya savaka' is a noble disciple, i.e. someone with ariya status at least stream entry.

I've only seen evidence in the suttas to the contrary, that ariya savaka extremely unlikely to be stream enterer.
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by User13866 »

I guess that ariyasāvaka denotes those who are learners & not-learners, which would include the pair of saddhānusārī & dhammānussāri.

Learners should be included because of the semantic proximity of 'student' & 'disciple', and non-learners should be included because pali for chief disciple is aggasāvaka.
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by Joe.c »

It should translate as against Mara. It is a tear of joy.

Because savaka also found in recollection of sangha characters. Buddha also pointed out 8 types of true beings as one of Savaka Sangha.
Supatipanno Bhagavato Savakasangho

yadidam cattari purisayugani atthapurisapuggala
Esa bhagavato savakasangho
Fyi, All of the ariya enter the stream from hearing the true dhamma from Buddha or his disciples.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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frank k
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by frank k »

User13866 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:51 pm I guess that ariyasāvaka denotes those who are learners & not-learners, which would include the pair of saddhānusārī & dhammānussāri.

Learners should be included because of the semantic proximity of 'student' & 'disciple', and non-learners should be included because pali for chief disciple is aggasāvaka.
references please? what scripture actually says any of those you named have at least stream entry?
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by User13866 »

frank k wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:34 am
User13866 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:51 pm I guess that ariyasāvaka denotes those who are learners & not-learners, which would include the pair of saddhānusārī & dhammānussāri.

Learners should be included because of the semantic proximity of 'student' & 'disciple', and non-learners should be included because pali for chief disciple is aggasāvaka.
references please? what scripture actually says any of those you named have at least stream entry?
Nothing explicit comes to mind. I think it's too obvious for there to be a reference like you are asking for.

For instance Assutāva Sutta explains that the worldling holds mind to be a self;
"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.
sn12.61
The sāvaka doesn't;
"The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:

"'When this is, that is.

"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

"'When this isn't, that isn't.

"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
If anybody doesn't cling to body & mind as self & permanent, which the sāvaka doesn't, then even if taking it on faith that person is not a wordling;
At Savatthi. "Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.
sn25.1
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frank k
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by frank k »

User13866 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:55 pm ...
Without references, then how can you be sure?
Iti 82 obviously the ariya savaka is not a stream enterer just because he decided to ordain.

The suttas use the designation 'ariya', when someone is at least a stream enterer.
"disciple of the noble ones" works everywhere,
'noble disciple (who is ariya)' doesn't in more than one case.

So why do people keep translating/interpreting it like that?
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by User13866 »

frank k wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:12 pm
User13866 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:55 pm ...
Without references, then how can you be sure?
Iti 82 obviously the ariya savaka is not a stream enterer just because he decided to ordain.

The suttas use the designation 'ariya', when someone is at least a stream enterer.
"disciple of the noble ones" works everywhere,
'noble disciple (who is ariya)' doesn't in more than one case.

So why do people keep translating/interpreting it like that?
I don't see how it's obvious. Iti 82
“At the time when a noble disciple, having had his hair and beard shaved off and having clothed himself in the yellow robe, intends going forth from home into homelessness, at that time among the devas the joyous utterance is proclaimed: ‘A noble disciple intends to do battle with Māra.’ This is the first joyous utterance proclaimed among the devas from time to time upon a certain occasion.
If learners couldn't be said to have work left to do in regards to battling Mara then you would be correct.
However learners have a lot of battling to do.

Therefore this verse can be about a learner going forth.

It is therefore definitely not obvious that this is about a worldling going forth.

Also it's not obvious to me why devas would rejoice at a worldling going into homelessness.
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by Coëmgenu »

User13866 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:43 pmAlso it's not obvious to me why devas would rejoice at a worldling going into homelessness.
Probably because they are Buddhists.

:spy: :stirthepot: :sage:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by User13866 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:57 pm
User13866 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 8:43 pmAlso it's not obvious to me why devas would rejoice at a worldling going into homelessness.
Probably because they are Buddhists.

:spy: :stirthepot: :sage:
I mean an uninstructed worldling isn't going to succeed at defeating Mara if he isn't a Bodhisatta. The sutta doesn't say that he is going to ordain in Buddha's dispensation.

Here is an example of people going forth;
When both found themselves of one accord, they had pale-yellow cloth and clay bowls brought for them from the bazaar, and then shaved each other's head. They thus became like ascetic wanderers, and they made the aspiration: "Those who are Arahats in the world, to them we dedicate our going forth!"
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el345.html
It is only later that Maha Kassapa met the Buddha and ordained. The going forth and ordination aren't the same thing.
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by Coëmgenu »

In the Buddha's time, what on earth differentiated them according to you? At one point, there were no ordination rubrics in the Buddha's time. He'd just rhetorically say "You're in" or "Nope" if someone expressed an interest. Do you have anything to the contrary?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by User13866 »

Here as well
Now at that time a clansman named Pukkusati had left home and gone forth into homelessness through faith, out of dedication to the Blessed One.
...
(Later on)
...
"Lord, may I receive full acceptance (ordination as a monk) from the Blessed One?"

"And are your robes & bowl complete?"

"No, lord, my robes & bowl are not complete."

"Tathagatas do not give full acceptance to one whose robes & bowl are not complete."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by User13866 »

Therefore it's not obvious why a puthujjana going forth would be celebrated.

I mean it's good of course but it's not particularly Buddhist or likely to lead to defeating Mara.
2. Then Punna, a son of the Koliyans and an ox-duty ascetic, and also Seniya a naked dog duty ascetic, went to the Blessed One, and Punna the ox duty ascetic paid homage to the Blessed One and sat down at one side, while Seniya the naked dog-duty ascetic exchanged greetings with the Blessed One, and when the courteous and amiable talk was finished, he too sat down at one side curled up like a dog. When Punna the ox-duty ascetic sat down, he asked the Blessed One: "Venerable sir, this naked dog-duty ascetic Seniya does what is hard to do: he eats his food when it is thrown on the ground. That dog duty has long been taken up and practiced by him. What will be his destination? What will be his future course?"[1]

"Enough, Punna, let that be. Do not ask me that."

A second time... A third time Punna the ox-duty ascetic asked the Blessed One: "Venerable sir, this naked dog-duty ascetic Seniya does what is hard to do: he eats his food when it is thrown on the ground. That dog duty has long been taken up and practiced by him. What will be his destination? What will be his future course?"

"Well, Punna, since I certainly cannot persuade you when I say 'Enough, Punna, let that be. Do not ask me that,' I shall therefore answer you.

3. "Here, Punna, someone develops the dog duty fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog-habit fully and unstintingly, he develops the dog mind fully and unstintingly, he develops dog behavior fully and unstintingly. Having done that, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of dogs. But if his view is such as this: 'By this virtue or duty or asceticism or religious life I shall become a (great) god or some (lesser) god,' that is wrong view in his case. Now there are two destinations for one with wrong view, I say: hell or the animal womb. So, Punna, if his dog duty is perfected, it will lead him to the company of dogs; if it is not, it will lead him to hell."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by Coëmgenu »

User13866 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:35 pm Here as well
Now at that time a clansman named Pukkusati had left home and gone forth into homelessness through faith, out of dedication to the Blessed One.
...
(Later on)
...
"Lord, may I receive full acceptance (ordination as a monk) from the Blessed One?"

"And are your robes & bowl complete?"

"No, lord, my robes & bowl are not complete."

"Tathagatas do not give full acceptance to one whose robes & bowl are not complete."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
That's a very good counterpoint. We'll see if I have a responding one in a bit, but that otherwise somewhat definitively contradicts my earlier assertion of "no rubrics at one point," doesn't it?

Clearly I've some reading to do.

My current belief is that, in the Buddha's time, many worldlings ordained and that the Buddha could tell from examining their wholesome roots and prior cultivation if it was worthwhile or not. Perhaps that belief is unjustified as far as the Pāli Canon is concerned.

Either way, the question was "why would devas rejoice at a worldling going into homelessness?" Devas might not be in a position to gauge whether or not someone has the capacity to attain or has already attained "Ariyahood."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by User13866 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:45 pm Either way, the question was "why would devas rejoice at a worldling going into homelessness?" Devas might not be in a position to gauge whether or not someone has the capacity to attain or has already attained "Ariyahood."
I can't rule it out but it's not obvious to me that they would.

Either way i think the op proposition requires evidence. I don't see much evidence to support the assertion that ariyasavaka can be one who is uninstructed in the iti82 and no other evidence is being presented. Therefore it's like gratis asseritur gratis deratur, asserted without evidence...
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by User13866 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:45 pm assertion of "no rubrics at one point," doesn't it?
I am not sure how this worked
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