is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

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Stephen010mt
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by Stephen010mt »

An Ariya Sāvaka, a Noble One, is one possessing the Non-upsetment realization, i.e. he or she is not upset at anything happening, whatever that may be (even the worst). This is what the Lord Buddha Gotama meant by a Noble One. One is necessarily either a Buddha or a Stream-enterer if one has the Non-upsetment realization.

Best of luck in your practice,
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frank k
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by frank k »

User13866 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:57 pm ...
Either way i think the op proposition requires evidence. I don't see much evidence to support the assertion that ariyasavaka can be one who is uninstructed in the iti82 and no other evidence is being presented. Therefore it's like gratis asseritur gratis deratur, asserted without evidence...
huh?

I think you may be misunderstanding the point.
Sujato translated/interpreted ariya-savaka as a 'noble disciple', i.e. someone who is at least a stream enterer.
But in Iti 82, it's just a newly ordained person, and could be ordained by anyone, not just the Buddha.
They are likely to be 'instructed', (i.e. have some learning in the BUddha's dhamma) but almost completely impossible you'd expect a typical case to be someone who is already a stream enterer before they ordained.
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by User13866 »

frank k wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:32 am
User13866 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:57 pm ...
Either way i think the op proposition requires evidence. I don't see much evidence to support the assertion that ariyasavaka can be one who is uninstructed in the iti82 and no other evidence is being presented. Therefore it's like gratis asseritur gratis deratur, asserted without evidence...
huh?

I think you may be misunderstanding the point.
Sujato translated/interpreted ariya-savaka as a 'noble disciple', i.e. someone who is at least a stream enterer.
But in Iti 82, it's just a newly ordained person, and could be ordained by anyone, not just the Buddha.
They are likely to be 'instructed', (i.e. have some learning in the BUddha's dhamma) but almost completely impossible you'd expect a typical case to be someone who is already a stream enterer before they ordained.
My point was that if they are instructed having received the general instruction;
How does Master Gotama discipline his disciples? Or what part of his instruction is generally presented to his disciples?"

"Aggivessana, I discipline my disciples in this way; this part of my instruction is generally presented to my disciples: 'Form is inconstant. Feeling is inconstant. Perception is inconstant. Fabrications are inconstant. Consciousness is inconstant. Form is not-self. Feeling is not-self. Perception is not-self. Fabrications are not-self. Consciousness is not-self. All fabrications are inconstant. All phenomena are not-self.' This, Aggivessana, is the way in which I discipline my disciples; this part of my instruction is generally presented to my disciples."
mn35
If they have confidence in that then they are saddhanussari.
At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.
sn25.3
This supported
wrote:"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.

"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

"The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:

"'When this is, that is.

"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

"'When this isn't, that isn't.

"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
Saddhanussari and Dhammanussari are developing the path of stream entry, as i understand it they are called stream enterers when stream-enterer is taken as a pair, a pair of those developing the path of stream-entry and those who have attained the fruition.
Last edited by User13866 on Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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frank k
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by frank k »

User13866 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:51 am ...
Saddhanussari and Dhammanussari are developing the path of stream entry, they are called stream enterers when stream-enterer is taken as a pair, a pair of those developing the path of stream-entry and those who have attained the fruition.
But the problem is 'ariya-savaka' rendered as 'noble disciples' means they have ATTAINED stream entry already, have that guarantee of arahantship in 7 lives or less, and no bad rebirths.

My understanding is someone who is "Saddhanussari and Dhammanussari are developing the path of stream entry"
is a work in progress, not someone who has secured the guarantee of an attained stream enterer.
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by User13866 »

frank k wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:19 am
User13866 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:51 am ...
Saddhanussari and Dhammanussari are developing the path of stream entry, they are called stream enterers when stream-enterer is taken as a pair, a pair of those developing the path of stream-entry and those who have attained the fruition.
But the problem is 'ariya-savaka' rendered as 'noble disciples' means they have ATTAINED stream entry already, have that guarantee of arahantship in 7 lives or less, and no bad rebirths.

My understanding is someone who is "Saddhanussari and Dhammanussari are developing the path of stream entry"
is a work in progress, not someone who has secured the guarantee of an attained stream enterer.
There are 4 pairs pertaining to the fruitions of; arahant, anagami, sakidagami and sotapanna.

They are eight individuals;
"The eight persons extolled by virtuous men constitute four pairs. They are the disciples of the Buddha [sugatassa sāvaka]] and are worthy of offerings. Gifts given to them yield rich results. This precious jewel is the Sangha.[4]
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... ml#fn-s3-4
These are people developing a path and those who have attained it's fruition. Saddhanussari are already able to distinhuish what is rightly spoken.
"Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners...
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by User13866 »

User13866 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:47 am There are 4 pairs pertaining to the fruitions of; arahant, anagami, sakidagami and sotapanna.

They are eight individuals;
"The eight persons extolled by virtuous men constitute four pairs. They are the disciples of the Buddha [sugatassa sāvaka]] and are worthy of offerings. Gifts given to them yield rich results. This precious jewel is the Sangha.[4]
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... ml#fn-s3-4
The eight can be classified in a 7 fold classification;
1. Faith follower
2. Dhamma-follower
3. Attained to view
4. Bodily Witness
5. Freed by faith
6. Freed by wisdom
7. Freed in both ways
Monks, there are these seven individuals to be found in the world. Which seven? One [released] both ways, one released through discernment, a bodily witness, one attained to view, one released through conviction, a Dhamma-follower, and a conviction-follower.

"And what is the individual [released] both ways? There is the case where a certain individual remains touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, and — having seen with discernment — his fermentations are ended. This is called an individual [released] both ways.[4] Regarding this monk, I do not say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? He has done his task with heedfulness. He is incapable of being heedless.

"And what is the individual released through discernment? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, but — having seen with discernment — his fermentations are ended. This is called an individual who is released through discernment.[5] Regarding this monk, I do not say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? He has done his task with heedfulness. He is incapable of being heedless.

"And what is the individual who is a bodily witness? There is the case where a certain individual remains touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, and — having seen with discernment — some of his fermentations are ended. This is called an individual who is a bodily witness.[6] Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness.

"And what is the individual attained to view? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, but — having seen with discernment — some of his fermentations are ended, and he has reviewed & examined with discernment the qualities (or: teachings) proclaimed by the Tathagata. This is called an individual who is attained to view.[7] Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness.

"And what is the individual released through conviction? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, but — having seen with discernment — some of his fermentations are ended, and his conviction in the Tathagata is settled, rooted, and established. This is called an individual who is released through conviction.[8] Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness.

"And what is the individual who is a Dhamma-follower? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, nor — having seen with discernment — are his fermentations ended. But with a [sufficient] measure of reflection through discernment he has come to an agreement with the teachings proclaimed by the Tathagata. And he has these qualities: the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, & the faculty of discernment. This is called an individual who is a Dhamma-follower.[9] Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness.

"And what is the individual who is a conviction-follower? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, nor — having seen with discernment — are his fermentations ended. But he has a [sufficient] measure of conviction in & love for the Tathagata. And he has these qualities: the faculty of conviction, the faculty of persistence, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, & the faculty of discernment. This is called an individual who is a conviction-follower. Regarding this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? [I think:] 'Perhaps this venerable one, when making use of suitable resting places, associating with admirable friends, balancing his [mental] faculties, will reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for himself in the here & now.' Envisioning this fruit of heedfulness for this monk, I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“In this matter, Sāriputta, it’s not easy to definitively declare that one of these three people is finest. In some cases, a person who is freed by faith is practicing for perfection, while the personal witness and the one attained to view are once-returners or non-returners.

In this matter, it’s not easy to definitively declare that one of these three people is finest. In some cases, a personal witness is practicing for perfection, while the one freed by faith and the one attained to view are once-returners or non-returners.

In this matter, it’s not easy to definitively declare that one of these three people is finest. In some cases, one attained to view is practicing for perfection, while the one freed by faith and the personal witness are once-returners or non-returners.
https://suttacentral.net/an3.21/en/suja ... ript=latin
As i understand it;

1. Faith follower
2. Dhamma-follower

These two haven't realized nirodha.

3. Attained to view
4. Bodily Witness
5. Freed by faith

These three have realized nirodha and the difference is primarily in their dominant faculty.

6. Freed by wisdom
7. Freed in both ways

These two are Arahants.
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

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Attained to view is simply Dhammānusārī.
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by frank k »

User13866 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:03 pm ...
Even if a dhammaanusari is an attained stream enterer, the sutta in OP, Iti 82, doesn't say, when one decides to ordain and leave the household life, they immediately become a stream enterer or dhammaanusari.


So proving that dhammaansuari is stream entry (which is what you seem to be trying to do) does nothing to
establish what an 'ariya savaka' is. (whether just a disciple of the noble one, or a stream enterer noble one).
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

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This is the last time i try to explain this.
"The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:

"'When this is, that is.

"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

"'When this isn't, that isn't.

"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
This doesn't say "some of the ariyasāvaka" or "a particular disciple" and it is therefore natural to take this to mean that all ariyasāvakā are like this.

Furthermore Nandiya sutta says that one in whom the limbs of stream entry are absent is not called a ariyasāvaka but an outsider.
Then Nandiya the Sakyan went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, “Lord, the disciple of the noble ones in whom the factors of stream entry are altogether & in every way lacking: Is he called a disciple of the noble ones who lives heedlessly?”

“Nandiya, the person in whom the factors of stream entry are altogether & in every way lacking I call an outsider, one who stands in the faction of the run-of-the-mill. But as to how a disciple of the noble ones dwells in heedlessness and dwells in heedfulness, listen well and pay attention, I will speak.”
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN55_40.html
Therefore when iti82 says 'ariyasāvaka is going forth' it is one with limbs of stream entry that is talked about, not an outsider in whom the factors of stream entry are absent.
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

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Joe.c wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:41 pm Fyi, All of the ariya enter the stream from hearing the true dhamma from Buddha or his disciples.
Does reading the suttas count?

Thanks.
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by frank k »

an instructed (sutava) disciple is not the same as an uninstructed disciple.

And in SN 55.40, it's comparing appamāda (heedful) with (heedless), not stream enterer or not stream enterer.

Another example where 'noble disciple' (requiring stream entry) doesn't make sense, in noble eightfold path right livelihood.
"miccha ajiva pahaya, samma ajivena kappeti" (he abandons wrong livelihood, undertakes right livelihood).
Even a non buddhist can do that, even an unethical non buddhist can do that.
one doesn't have to have to be a stream enterer to be able to have right livelihood.

User13866 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:19 pm This is the last time i try to explain this.
"The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:

"'When this is, that is.

"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

"'When this isn't, that isn't.

"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
This doesn't say "some of the ariyasāvaka" or "a particular disciple" and it is therefore natural to take this to mean that all ariyasāvakā are like this.

Furthermore Nandiya sutta says that one in whom the limbs of stream entry are absent is not called a ariyasāvaka but an outsider.
Then Nandiya the Sakyan went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, “Lord, the disciple of the noble ones in whom the factors of stream entry are altogether & in every way lacking: Is he called a disciple of the noble ones who lives heedlessly?”

“Nandiya, the person in whom the factors of stream entry are altogether & in every way lacking I call an outsider, one who stands in the faction of the run-of-the-mill. But as to how a disciple of the noble ones dwells in heedlessness and dwells in heedfulness, listen well and pay attention, I will speak.”
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN55_40.html
Therefore when iti82 says 'ariyasāvaka is going forth' it is one with limbs of stream entry that is talked about, not an outsider in whom the factors of stream entry are absent.
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by Joe.c »

Alex123 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:40 am
Joe.c wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:41 pm Fyi, All of the ariya enter the stream from hearing the true dhamma from Buddha or his disciples.
Does reading the suttas count?

Thanks.
Not, according to my understanding (but others/most people might not agreed with me :) ). You need to hear from Nobles directly and associate with them.

But one can get some understanding from Sutta, not completely. There will always a doubt (vicikiccha) when one study alone in my experience. But others might not agree with me again. :smile:

Whatever Buddha or Ariya said in Sutta needs to be follow to the exact steps. Can’t be skipped unfortunately.

As Buddha said in MN 75 and many others,
MN75 wrote:… “I am quite confident that Master Gotama is capable of teaching me so that I can rise from this seat cured of blindness.”

“Well then, Māgaṇḍiya, you should associate with good people.

When you associate with good people, you will hear the true teaching.

When you hear the true teaching, you’ll practice in line with the teaching.

When you practice in line with the teaching, you’ll know and see for yourself:

‘These are diseases, boils, and darts. And here is where diseases, boils, and darts cease without anything left over.’ When my grasping ceases, continued existence ceases. When continued existence ceases, birth ceases. When birth ceases, old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress cease. That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.”
Also on MN 43, 2 conditions for right view to arise per conversation between Ven. Mahākoṭṭhita And Ven. Sariputta.
MN 43 wrote:How many conditions are there for the arising of right view?”

“There are two conditions for the arising of right view: the words of another and proper attention.
These are the two conditions for the arising of right view.”
But one can practice good morality first (24 hours/7 days). When one practice good morality, one will see more good people. Then, maybe one can see and associate with good people. From here, hearing a true dhamma will be possible eventually.

If one has been good, then it will be easier to check who are good persons. Then listen to their talk, see whether the talk can end the suffering here and now. If not, then move on and find another. Otherwise reach samadhi, then the checking can be more details and easier. :smile:

As Buddha said in MN 2, when one see/know noble, one will become noble at that time. No more puthujjana.
MN 2 wrote:But take an educated noble disciple who has seen the noble ones, and is skilled and trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve seen good persons, and are skilled and trained in the teaching of the good persons. They understand to which things they should pay attention and to which things they should not pay attention. So they pay attention to things they should and don’t pay attention to things they shouldn’t.
Good luck.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by Alex123 »

Joe.c wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:38 pm Not, according to my understanding (but others/most people might not agreed with me :) ). You need to hear from Nobles directly and associate with them.
How does one know who is Noble and who isn't? Monks aren't allowed to declare their attainments.
MN 43 wrote:How many conditions are there for the arising of right view?”

“There are two conditions for the arising of right view: the words of another and proper attention.
These are the two conditions for the arising of right view.”
In those times, Dhamma wasn't written in books and many people were illiterate. So, of course, one had to hear it from someone. There was no other way.
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Re: is there canonical evidence that an 'ariya savaka' is at least a stream enterer?

Post by Joe.c »

Alex123 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:24 pm How does one know who is Noble and who isn't?
I replied in my above post.

When one practice good morality first (24 hours/7 days). When one practice good morality, one will see more good people. Then, maybe one can see and associate with good people. From here, hearing a true dhamma will be possible eventually.

Because a good person can know who is good and who is not. From here, one can be sure. But this observation may take time for some.

So, use the sutta to practice and investigate who is noble. If one truly understand the sutta, one can know who is noble and who is the fake one.

Don't just know the problem, but try to practice the path (solution) day and night. Even practice of sila will benefit one here and now.

When listen to sutta, try to make effort to focus attentively. Forget about commentaries.

As Buddha said on many sutta such as SN 14.15
SN 14.15 wrote: ...
Sentient beings come together and converge because of an element.

Those who have a bad attitude come together and converge with those who have a bad attitude.

Those who have a good attitude come together and converge with those who have a good attitude.

In the past, in the future, and also in the present, sentient beings come together and converge because of an element. Those who have a bad attitude come together and converge with those who have a bad attitude. Those who have a good attitude come together and converge with those who have a good attitude.”
Alex123 wrote:Monks aren't allowed to declare their attainments.

This is not totally true. It is a minor precepts if the monk tell the correct attainment. But the true noble will not just say See I'm noble. They will investigate whether this person is worthy or not.

So it has to be truly a win-win proposition. If someone just claim he/she is noble, but the other person is not interested then it is no use. It will become a joke.🤣

Nowadays a lot of putthujana claim to be noble, heck someone claim an arahant in this forum. But he said he taught nothing, and has doubt about sutta whether it is truly Buddha said so or not. A true arahant has broken the vicikiccha fetter.
Alex123 wrote: In those times, Dhamma wasn't written in books and many people were illiterate. So, of course, one had to hear it from someone. There was no other way.
Yeah, this is one of counter argument. The only thing is Buddha said that whatever he said is true whether it is past, present or future after he is awaken.

So, whether the world change from no book to book/scripture, the discourses that Buddha and other Ariya said will remain true for person who want to practice. Such as AN 4.23 or DN 28 and many others.
AN 4.23 wrote: ...
(1) “Bhikkhus, in this world with its devas, Māra, and Brahmā, among this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its devas and humans, whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, reached, sought after, examined by the mind—all that the Tathāgata has fully awakened to; therefore he is called the Tathāgata.

(2) “Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds in the interval between the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment and the night when he attains final nibbāna, all that is just so and not otherwise; therefore he is called the Tathāgata.

(3) “Bhikkhus, as the Tathāgata speaks, so he does; as he does, so he speaks. Since he does as he speaks and speaks as he does, therefore he is called the Tathāgata.

(4) “Bhikkhus, in this world with its devas, Māra, and Brahmā, among this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its devas and humans, the Tathāgata is the vanquisher, the unvanquished, the universal seer, the wielder of mastery; therefore he is called the Tathāgata.
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I bet he can see future with those iddhis. 😁

The question is who do you trust?
1. Will you trust Buddha and other ariyas? or
2. Will you trust commentaries from possibly a puthujjana? 😁

For me I take Buddha and all ariyas in sutta words any time of the day. 😁

But again, don't trust my words, see for yourself from your own practice (ehipasiko).
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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