EBT references to the wickedness of women

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User13866
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EBT references to the wickedness of women

Post by User13866 »

Continuation of this thread. Please contain the matter of further definition of what is a woman to another thread.

Please avoid off-topic discussion

Posted thus far;
viewtopic.php?p=619372#p619372
The Dhammapada section on Impurity has this:
242. Unchastity is the taint in a woman; stinginess is the taint in a giver. Taints, indeed, are all evil things, both in this world and the next.
viewtopic.php?p=619431#p619431
It’s like those families with many women and few men. They’re easy prey for bandits and thieves. In the same way, the spiritual life does not last long in a teaching and training where females gain the going forth.

It’s like a field full of rice. Once the disease called ‘white bones’ attacks, it doesn’t last long. In the same way, the spiritual life does not last long in a teaching and training where females gain the going forth.

It’s like a field full of sugar cane. Once the disease called ‘red rot’ attacks, it doesn’t last long. In the same way, the spiritual life does not last long in a teaching and training where females gain the going forth.

https://suttacentral.net/an8.51/en/sujato
viewtopic.php?p=619505#p619505
Verily, friend Punnamukha, in forty different ways a woman makes up to a man . She draws herself up, she bends down, she frisks about, she looks coy, she presses together her finger tips, she plants one foot on the other, she scratches the ground with a stick, she dances her boy up and down, she plays and makes the boy play, she kisses and makes him kiss her, she eats and gives him to eat, she either gives or begs something, whatever is done she mimics, she speaks in a high or low tone, she speaks now indistinctly, now distinctly, she appeals to him with dance, song and music, with tears or coquetry, or with her finery, she laughs or stares, she shakes her dress or shifts her loin-cloth, exposes or covers up her leg, exposes her bosom, her armpit, her navel, she closes her eye, she elevates her eyebrow, she pinches her lip, makes her tongue loll out, looses or tightens her cloth dress, looses or tightens her head-gear. Verily in these forty ways she makes up to a man.
In ancient story Kanha, it is said,
A single maid to princes five was wed,
Insatiate still she lusted for yet more
And with a hump-backed dwarf she played the whore.
Verily, friend Punnamukha, these creatures are not mere harlots, wenches or street-walkers, they are not so much strumpets as murderesses —I mean these harlots, wenches, and street-walkers . They are like unto robbers with braided locks, like a poisoned drink, like merchants that sing their own praises, crooked like a deer’s horn, evil-tongued like snakes, like a pit that is covered over, insatiate as hell, as hard to satisfy as a she-ogre, like the all-rapacious Yama, all-devouring like a flame, sweeping all before it as a river, like the wind going where it lists, undiscriminating like mount Neru, fruiting perennially like a poison tree.” Here too occurs a further verse:

Like poisoned draught or robber fell, crooked as horn of stag,
Like serpent evil-tongued are they, as merchant apt to brag,

Murderous as covered pit, like Hell’s insatiate maw are they,
As goblin greedy or like Death that carries all away.

Devouring like a flame are they, mighty as wind or flood,
Like Neru’s golden peak that aye confuses bad and good,
Pernicious as a poison-tree they fivefold ruin bring
On household gear, wasters of wealth and every precious thing.
Perverse in all her acts she does the thing she should eschew,
And hearkens to the stranger’s voice, her favours should he sue,
Her husband’s wealth is freely spent some other love to gain,
By signs like these her wickedness to all is rendered plain.

The wealth that by her lord with toil was carefully amassed,
The gear so painfully heaped up, behold, she squanders fast,
With neighbours far too intimate the lady soon will grow,
And by such signs the wickedness of women one may know.

Stepping abroad behold her how she walks about the streets,
And with the grossest disrespect her lord and master treats:
Nor of adultery stops short, corrupt in heart and mind—
By such like signs how wicked are all womenfolk we find.

Often she will at her own door all decency defy,
And shamelessly expose herself to any passing by,
The while with troubled heart she looks around on every side—
By such like signs the wickedness of women is descried.

As groves are made of wood, as streams in curves and windings flow,
So, give them opportunity, all women wrong will go.

Yea give them opportunity and secrecy withal,
And every single woman will from paths of virtue fall:
Thus will all women wantons prove, should time and place avail,
And e’en with humpback dwarf will sin, should other lovers fail.

Women that serve for man’s delight let every one distrust,
Fickle in heart they ever are and unrestrained in lust.
Ladies of pleasure fitly called, the basest of the base,
To all then such as common are as any bathing place.
Let him not trust because he thinks “she fancies me, I trow,”
Nor let him trust because her tears oft in his presence flow;
They court the man they hate as much as one that they adore,
Just as a ship that hugs alike the near and farther shore.

...

Women are not so formed, this man to love and that abhor,
They court the man they hate as much as one that they adore,
E’en as a ship that hugs alike the near and farther shore.

’Tis not a case of love or hate with womenfolk we see,
It is for gold they hug a man, like parasites a tree.
https://suttacentral.net/ja536/en/francis
viewtopic.php?p=646728#p646728

AN 2.61:
“Mendicants, females die without getting enough of two things. What two? Sexual intercourse and giving birth. Females die without getting enough of these two things."
SN 1.76:
Youth is ending day and night.
Women are the stain of celibacy,
to which this generation clings.
https://suttacentral.net/an5.229/en/sujato AN5.229
“Mendicants, there are these five drawbacks of a black snake. What five? It’s filthy, stinking, cowardly, frightening, and treacherous. These are the five dangers of a black snake.
In the same way there are five drawbacks of a female. What five? She’s filthy, stinking, cowardly, frightening, and treacherous. These are the five drawbacks of a female.”
https://suttacentral.net/an5.230/en/sujato AN5.230:
“Mendicants, there are these five drawbacks of a black snake. What five? It’s irritable, hostile, venomous, fork-tongued, and treacherous. These are the five dangers of a black snake.

In the same way there are five drawbacks of a female. What five? She’s irritable, hostile, venomous, fork-tongued, and treacherous. This is a female’s venom: usually she’s very lustful. This is a female’s forked tongue: usually she speaks divisively. This is a female’s treachery: usually she’s an adulteress. These are the five drawbacks of a female.”
https://suttacentral.net/an5.55/en/sujato AN5.55
When a woman walks, she occupies a man’s mind. When a woman stands … sits … lies down … laughs … speaks … sings … cries … is injured, she occupies a man’s mind. Even when a woman is dead, she occupies a man’s mind. For if anyone should be rightly called ‘an all-round snare of Māra’, it’s females.
AN4.122
“There he sees women with their dress in disarray and loosely attired. When he sees them, lust invades his mind. With his mind invaded by lust, he gives up the training and reverts to the lower life. This is called a bhikkhu who has given up the training and reverted to the lower life because of the peril of fierce fish. ‘The peril of fierce fish’ is a designation for women. This is called the peril of fierce fish.”
AN4.80:
“On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Kosambī in Ghosita’s Park. Then the Venerable Ānanda approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said:
“Bhante, why is it that women do not sit in council, or engage in business, or go to Kamboja?”774
“Ānanda, women are prone to anger; women are envious; [83] women are miserly; women are unwise. This is why women do not sit in council, engage in business, or go to Kamboja”
AN3.129:
“Then the Venerable Anuruddha approached the Blessed One, paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said: “Now, Bhante, with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I see that women, with the breakup of the body, after death, are mostly reborn in the plane of misery, in a bad destination, in the lower world, in hell. What qualities does a woman possess on account of which, with the breakup of the body, after death, she is reborn in the plane of misery, in a bad destination, in the lower world, in hell?”
“When she possesses three qualities, Anuruddha, with the breakup of the body, after death, a woman is reborn in the plane of misery, in a bad destination, in the lower world, in hell. What three?
(1) “Here, Anuruddha, in the morning a woman dwells at home with a mind obsessed by the stain of miserliness. (2) At midday she dwells at home with a mind obsessed by envy. (3) And in the evening she dwells at home with a mind obsessed by sensual lust. When she possesses these three qualities, with the breakup of the body, after death, a woman is reborn in the plane of misery, in a bad destination, in the lower world, in hell.”
viewtopic.php?p=682429#p682429
15. “He understands: ‘It is impossible, it cannot happen that a woman could be an Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One ― there is no such possibility.’ And he understands: ‘It is possible that a man might be an Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One ― there is such a possibility.’ He understands: ‘It is impossible, it cannot happen that a woman could be a Wheel-turning Monarch...that a woman could occupy the position of Sakka...that a woman could occupy the position of Māra...that a woman could occupy the position of Brahmā ― there is no such possibility.’ And he understands: ‘It is possible that a man might be a Wheel-turning Monarch...that a man might occupy the position of Sakka...that a man might occupy the position of Māra...that a man might occupy the position of Brahmā ― there is such a possibility.’
mn115
“Ānanda, if females had not gained the going forth from the lay life to homelessness in the teaching and training proclaimed by the Realized One, the spiritual life would have lasted long. The true teaching would have remained for a thousand years. But since they have gained the going forth, now the spiritual life will not last long. The true teaching will remain only five hundred years.
https://suttacentral.net/an8.51/en/suja ... ript=latin
Last edited by User13866 on Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
sunnat
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Post by sunnat »

A patriarchal society with misogynistic tendencies is the ‘red rot’ that attacks a field of sugar cane, or ‘white bones’ attacking a field of rice or that attacks the spiritual life with nuns in it. The warning is not against women. The ever pragmatic, teaching, Buddha warns about the tendencies of men in a patriarchal society with misogynistic tendencies. Rather than fuelling tension he prescribes eight rules that will safeguard women and so the spiritual life giving more men the opportunity to learn respect.
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Re:

Post by User13866 »

sunnat wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:14 pm A patriarchal society with misogynistic tendencies is the ‘red rot’ that attacks a field of sugar cane, or ‘white bones’ attacking a field of rice or that attacks the spiritual life with nuns in it. The warning is not against women. The ever pragmatic, teaching, Buddha warns about the tendencies of men in a patriarchal society with misogynistic tendencies. Rather than fuelling tension he prescribes eight rules that will safeguard women and so the spiritual life giving more men the opportunity to learn respect.
Perhaps make a new thread discussing these things, but do so not here so we can study.
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Re:

Post by Spiny Norman »

sunnat wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:14 pm A patriarchal society with misogynistic tendencies is the ‘red rot’ that attacks a field of sugar cane, or ‘white bones’ attacking a field of rice or that attacks the spiritual life with nuns in it. The warning is not against women. The ever pragmatic, teaching, Buddha warns about the tendencies of men in a patriarchal society with misogynistic tendencies. Rather than fuelling tension he prescribes eight rules that will safeguard women and so the spiritual life giving more men the opportunity to learn respect.
The quotes in the OP just look patriarchal and misogynistic to me, presumably reflecting the culture at the time.
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Re: EBT references to the wickedness of women

Post by SDC »

Ok, so you want to continue the other thread? You do realize that topic was not framed very well, and now yours isn’t either. So, now that you’ve posted these suttas, can you tell us what you actually want to talk about and why? Are you aware of this from Section 4 of the ToS:

“Since you are not here alone, new topics should invite discussion via questions, suggestions, an introduction, or provide appropriate context.”

Are you an incel and plan on slowly making a case for why you hate women? Are you looking for additional references? Do you just want to share the ones you enjoy?
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: EBT references to the wickedness of women

Post by User13866 »

SDC wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:19 am Ok, so you want to continue the other thread?
Is it not obvious?
SDC wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:19 am So, now that you’ve posted these suttas, can you tell us what you actually want to talk about and why?
I am looking for religious texts of Theravada tradition such as Jataka, Sutta & Vinaya. I want to study & discuss them because i think they are worth mastering.
SDC wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:19 am Ok, so you want to continue the other thread? You do realize that topic was not framed very well, and now yours isn’t either. So, now that you’ve posted these suttas, can you tell us what you actually want to talk about and why? Are you aware of this from Section 4 of the ToS:

“Since you are not here alone, new topics should invite discussion via questions, suggestions, an introduction, or provide appropriate context.”

Are you an incel and plan on slowly making a case for why you hate women? Are you looking for additional references? Do you just want to share the ones you enjoy?
I am looking for additional references and if somebody wants to discuss the texts that is fine.

I was told that the other thread was locked because of the off-topic discussion and to go ahead create a new one.

It would be good to compile them in one thread for future reference.

No i am not an incel lmao. Womens love me.
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Re: EBT references to the wickedness of women

Post by User13866 »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:09 pm
User13866 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:01 pm Reopen the thread or i will make a new one compiling the existent references and asking whether there are more.
Hi [name redacted by admin],

Feel free to start any new thread you like. I've closed that particular one because the last posts were off-topic.

Regards,

S.
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:12 pm
User13866 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:42 pm Perhaps split it then?

Doing the work for you without the tools at your disposal is very tedious.
Hi [name redacted by admin],

It's not "doing the work for me", as the thread will not be split. I note that you have started a new thread on "EBT references to the wickedness of women". That's fine, but please note that the previous thread had a good deal of unpleasant and disruptive material in it and was therefore labelled as a "hot topic". If it deteriorates below the standards expected for a topic with that title, it might get closed again.

Your other topic about what a woman is has been deleted, as having no connection to "Other Paths", nor indeed to Buddhism.

Regards,

S.
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Re: EBT references to the wickedness of women

Post by User13866 »

SDC wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:19 am Are you an incel and plan on slowly making a case for why you hate women? Are you looking for additional references? Do you just want to share the ones you enjoy?
I am trying hard to be a vcel. It's very difficult but it's not the fault of wamen, they are as they are, it is my lust & desire that needs to be eradicated.

I find these texts to be a good reminder of the drawbacks generally associated with the getting entangled with females.

I don't hate women at all, it seems rather stupid of you to ascribe this to me and it is not found in me.

What i hate is my sensuality, my fierce lust & longing for Mara's bait, for that which the teacher compared to a slaughterhouse, to a bloody bone, to a torch, to a pit of embers, to a dream, to a fruit on a tree, to spears & swords, to a snake's head and to borrowed goods.
Last edited by User13866 on Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EBT references to the wickedness of women

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User13866 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:35 pm
SDC wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:19 am Are you an incel and plan on slowly making a case for why you hate women? Are you looking for additional references? Do you just want to share the ones you enjoy?
I am trying hard to be a vcel. It's very difficult but it's not the fault of wamen, they are as they are, it is my lust & desire that needs to be eradicated.

I find these texts to be a good reminder of the drawbacks generally associated with the getting entangled with females.
Now this makes sense if there is no tongue in cheek. I wonder…

Trying ! I say if at first you do not succeed, fail, fail again.

Metta

:anjali:

Edit to add: Just get married. That will put you off women for good in more ways than one.
Last edited by NotMe on Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EBT references to the wickedness of women

Post by User13866 »

I don't hate women at all, they are like me.

What i hate is my sensuality, my lust & longing for Mara's bait which the teacher compared to a slaughterhouse, to a bloody bone, to a torch, to a pit of embers, to a dream, to a fruit on a tree, to spears & swords, to a snake's head and to borrowed goods.
Last edited by User13866 on Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EBT references to the wickedness of women

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User13866 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:35 pm
SDC wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:19 am Are you an incel and plan on slowly making a case for why you hate women? Are you looking for additional references? Do you just want to share the ones you enjoy?
I am trying hard to be a vcel. It's very difficult but it's not the fault of wamen, they are as they are, it is my lust & desire that needs to be eradicated.

I find these texts to be a good reminder of the drawbacks generally associated with the getting entangled with females.
Then the wickedness is within you also. In fact, it is better to remind yourself of the actual source of suffering rather than harping on its circumstances. And that source is within your view, not the things in the world. Presenting this topic divorced from the central theme of the suttas, and the purpose of the Dhamma, is not helpful. It is important that readers of this topic understand that.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: EBT references to the wickedness of women

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User13866 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:53 pm I don't hate women at all, they are like me.

What i hate is my sensuality, my lust & longing for Mara's bait, that which the teacher compared to a slaughterhouse, to a bloody bone, to a torch, to a pit of embers, to a dream, to a fruit on a tree, to spears & swords, to a snake's head and to borrowed goods.
Then let’s compile some suttas about that! That is the stuff of urgency that will really shake everyone to the bone.

EDIT: I didn’t see your edit in time
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: EBT references to the wickedness of women

Post by Sam Vara »

User13866 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:53 pm I don't hate women at all, they are like me.

What i hate is my sensuality, my lust & longing for Mara's bait which the teacher compared to a slaughterhouse, to a bloody bone, to a torch, to a pit of embers, to a dream, to a fruit on a tree, to spears & swords, to a snake's head and to borrowed goods.
Might there be more effective ways of ridding yourself of it than hating it?
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Re: EBT references to the wickedness of women

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SDC wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:53 pm Then the wickedness is within you also. In fact, it is better to remind yourself of the actual source of suffering rather than harping on its circumstances. And that source is within your view, not the things in the world. Presenting this topic divorced from the central theme of the suttas, and the purpose of the Dhamma, is not helpful. It is important that readers of this topic understand that.
I understand that a topic like this might come of as 'men blaming women for all bad things' but it doesn't matter to me because it's not true.

As a matter if fact the more i train the more i realize that when men complain about being abused by women it is rather silly because in so many ways they did it to themselves.

It's like a fish blaming the worm after having swallowed the baited hook.

If women made a thread discussing the drawbacks of getting entangled with males i would applaud them and try to contribute to their disenchantment.
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Re: EBT references to the wickedness of women

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User13866 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:15 pm
SDC wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:53 pm Then the wickedness is within you also. In fact, it is better to remind yourself of the actual source of suffering rather than harping on its circumstances. And that source is within your view, not the things in the world. Presenting this topic divorced from the central theme of the suttas, and the purpose of the Dhamma, is not helpful. It is important that readers of this topic understand that.
I understand that a topic like this might come of as 'men blaming women for all bad things' but it doesn't matter to me because it's not true.

As a matter if fact the more i train the more i realize that when men complain about being abused by women it is rather silly because in so many ways they did it to themselves.

It's like a fish blaming the worm after having swallowed the baited hook.

If women made a thread discussing the drawbacks of getting entangled with males i would applaud them and try to contribute to their disenchantment.
And I would post the same thing I posted to you. Harping on suffering’s manifestation is helpful only to the degree that it emphasizes that one is prey to suffering and that everything that is felt is included in suffering. Other than that, it is emphasizing the wrong issue. It takes for granted that the things that make you suffer are the problem, and that is absolutely the wrong view according to the Buddha.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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