Tao

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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NotMe
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Re: Tao

Post by NotMe »

Jack19990101 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:20 pm ...
The scriptures are made of short stories, followed by a comment from LaoTzu or ZhuangTzu. In a format of childhood fable.
Sometime, it is a rhetoric question, inspire ppl to contemplate.
It doesn't feel a teaching, but rather a casual conversation over a coffee.
...
Easy reading ... like Ajaan Chah I bet.

"Ajahn Chah's wonderfully simple style of teaching can be deceptive. It is often only after we have heard something many times that suddenly our minds are ripe and somehow the teaching takes on a much deeper meaning."

Metta

:anjali:
Jack19990101
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Re: Tao

Post by Jack19990101 »

befriend wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:33 pm I read some of the history of China during Lao tzus existence and it was in political disarray and people were trying to find some harmony in the country and a lot of different philosophies popped up because of the chaos. to me I think Taoism is like a wise persons reaction to Confucianism it's about living in tune with nature and others not about obeying rules. It's very zen and kind of theravadan, when your being mindful it's harder to do bad things because mindfulness is morally wholesome. This living in the present moment attitude is about when your doing something swing your attention back to what your doing eventually if you do this enough the correct action/response will come by itself regarding any situation. According to zen maybe this is what is meant by wu Wei or effortless action.
Confucianism is vile. It smells the same as 1984.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Tao

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:39 am How similar is the concept of Tao to the Dhamma?
The Dào is the alleged natural law of the world, and the Dhamma is the alleged supernatural law that transcends the world. Although they have a lot of overlap, they also have very fundamental differences. I can't figure out how I'm going to expand on that yet, because there are too many directions to take it in.

Right off the bat though, the medium of revelation in Dàoism is poetry, while the medium of revelation in Buddhism is discourse. That's already a huge difference. Buddhism/"the Dharma" has poetry in it too though. Imagine if all we had of the suttas were the gāthās in them, and that's a little bit like what Dàoist religious literature is like as opposed to Buddhist literature.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
PeterC86
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Re: Tao

Post by PeterC86 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:39 am How similar is the concept of Tao to the Dhamma?
Depends on what you mean with Dhamma. Tao refers to the way reality is; the unconditionedness of it. It cannot be grasped or (intellectually) known. One can only live according to the Tao by intuition. Tao refers to the same as what is refered to in Buddhism with Nibbana. Although many schools of Theravada and Mahayana hold Nibbana to be different from this. The 'practice' of wu wei is similar as what is explained in the Malunkyaputta Sutta and Bāhiya Sutta, further explained by Ñāṇananda, refered to in this post; viewtopic.php?p=682788#p682788.
Last edited by PeterC86 on Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
SteRo
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Re: Tao

Post by SteRo »

Taoism is as alien to my native culture as is buddhism. So it may only be an object of scientific doctrinal investigation like buddhism is one. But currently I can't see why I should investigate Taoism because it seems to evoke no resonance among individuals that live in my cultural sphere.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
Bundokji
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Re: Tao

Post by Bundokji »

Both emphasize dualities, and therefore dynamic, which makes "grasping" the wrong way of approaching them. The symbol of the yin yang is made of an encircled opposites of which each has a smaller circle, a seed of some sort which makes it rooted in it. They can resemble human genitalia and be extended to how worldly meaning is constructed. We have the number 4, a duality that resembles a polarity of which a middle can be spoke of in terms of the tetralemma, but will be always disputed. The circle itself symbolizes a spin, or whirlpool, akin to the spinning of the wheel of dhamma. The aim of the spiritual life is therefore to flow out of the spin, and to enter the so-called stream.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
PeterC86
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Re: Tao

Post by PeterC86 »

Bundokji wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:00 am Both emphasize dualities, and therefore dynamic, which makes "grasping" the wrong way of approaching them.
You say this, and then you follow;
The symbol of the yin yang is made of an encircled opposites of which each has a smaller circle, a seed of some sort which makes it rooted in it. They can resemble human genitalia and be extended to how worldly meaning is constructed. We have the number 4, a duality that resembles a polarity of which a middle can be spoke of in terms of the tetralemma, but will be always disputed. The circle itself symbolizes a spin, or whirlpool, akin to the spinning of the wheel of dhamma. The aim of the spiritual life is therefore to flow out of the spin, and to enter the so-called stream.
:meditate:

Yin yang refers to DO; when this is, that is. Right only exists in opposite to wrong, good in relation to bad, etc. All mere fabrications.
Bundokji
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Re: Tao

Post by Bundokji »

PeterC86 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:35 pm
Bundokji wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:00 am Both emphasize dualities, and therefore dynamic, which makes "grasping" the wrong way of approaching them.
You say this, and then you follow;
The symbol of the yin yang is made of an encircled opposites of which each has a smaller circle, a seed of some sort which makes it rooted in it. They can resemble human genitalia and be extended to how worldly meaning is constructed. We have the number 4, a duality that resembles a polarity of which a middle can be spoke of in terms of the tetralemma, but will be always disputed. The circle itself symbolizes a spin, or whirlpool, akin to the spinning of the wheel of dhamma. The aim of the spiritual life is therefore to flow out of the spin, and to enter the so-called stream.
:meditate:

Yin yang refers to DO; when this is, that is. Right only exists in opposite to wrong, good in relation to bad, etc. All mere fabrications.
What i meant by grasping is the intuition that formulating them into words and carrying them over would lead to liberation. That intuition is part of the structure when yin yang is a symbolic description of the world. That makes the world indeed describable, but the ability to describe it should not be equated with being liberated from it. Nama-rupa seems to be a function of the way we live, which is part of the relationality you mentioned.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Dweller
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Re: Tao

Post by Dweller »

19. First we name. Then we describe. Then
we compare. Then we set one first, another
last. As soon as we start to name it’s time to
stop.

20. Fill yourself with utmost emptiness.
Embrace internal tranquility. The ten thou-
sand things, see how they arise and flow
around you—each one coming into being,
growing, adapting, changing, fulfilling, then
returning to the source—as you sit in still-
ness in the center, watching.
Tao Te Ching
Ontheway
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Re: Tao

Post by Ontheway »

DNS wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:02 pm I'm not an expert on Taoism, but from limited understanding of the main points:

Both have impermanent gods, worthy of veneration.
Both don't have a personal-creator-God.
Both have meditation traditions.
Both have a concept of kamma (for Taoists it's when being off-track from the Tao).

Main difference is that Buddhism is other-worldly, focusing on liberation, freedom from samsara; while Taoism focuses on good health and exercise and the here-and-now.
Taoism got creator god(s), similar to Hinduism.

In Chinese Taoism literature, there was a saying "One divides into Two, from Two comes everything."; then, comes the Three Supreme High Priests (San Qing aka Three Pure Ones) that control everything:
06118f2d25fa4aff961e25c16a713aeb.jpeg
Then comes the "Nu Wo Liang Liang" aka Goddess of Nu Wo that created human beings from dirt:
772144438_m.jpg
Nu Wo Goddess

And also, "Pan Gu" god created the Earth by splitting his golden egg (sheltering his body) into half.
220px-Pangu.jpg
220px-Pangu.jpg (25.6 KiB) Viewed 373 times
And Buddhism focus on liberation from Samsara; but Taoism seeks Immortality and heavenly bliss.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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DNS
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Re: Tao

Post by DNS »

Ontheway wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:34 am ...
Interesting, thanks. I thought there was a philosophical Taoism that wasn't into the pantheon of gods, but it turns out, it's a Western invention.
Taoism in the West today is not at all like Chinese Taoist religion. Very few Westerners have adopted its gods and goddesses, although there are a few organizations... that have installed altars in their centres, worship Taoist gods, and celebrate Taoist (and Buddhist) festival days.

Livia Kohn, Michael Lafargue, Lao-Tzu and the Tao-Te-Ching, State University of New York Press, 1998
https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religion ... ind%20them.

Taoism is often taught in the West as an atheist or agnostic philosophy, but in China and Taiwan particularly, Taoism still functions like any conventional religion, and not like an abstract philosophy of life.
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DNS
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Re: Tao

Post by DNS »

While looking around for information on Taoism, found this cool fact: Taoism has 5 precepts and they are virtually the same as the Buddhist panca-sila:
In Taoism, the Five Precepts (Chinese: 五戒; pinyin: Wǔ Jiè; Jyutping: Ng5 Gaai3) constitute the basic code of ethics undertaken mainly by lay practitioners. For monks and nuns, there are more advanced and stricter precepts. The Five Precepts are nearly the same as the Five Precepts of Buddhism; however, there are minor differences to fit in with Chinese society.

According to the Zhengtong daozang (1445)[full citation needed], the five basic precepts are:

The first precept: No Killing;
The second precept: No Stealing;
The third precept: No Sexual Misconduct;
The fourth precept: No False Speech;
The fifth precept: No Taking of Intoxicants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_precepts_(Taoism)
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NotMe
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Re: Tao

Post by NotMe »

Dweller wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:22 pm
19. First we name. Then we describe. Then
we compare. Then we set one first, another
last. As soon as we start to name it’s time to
stop.

20. Fill yourself with utmost emptiness.
Embrace internal tranquility. The ten thou-
sand things, see how they arise and flow
around you—each one coming into being,
growing, adapting, changing, fulfilling, then
returning to the source—as you sit in still-
ness in the center, watching.
Tao Te Ching
Awesome!

Metta

:anjali:
Ontheway
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Re: Tao

Post by Ontheway »

DNS wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:50 am While looking around for information on Taoism, found this cool fact: Taoism has 5 precepts and they are virtually the same as the Buddhist panca-sila:
In Taoism, the Five Precepts (Chinese: 五戒; pinyin: Wǔ Jiè; Jyutping: Ng5 Gaai3) constitute the basic code of ethics undertaken mainly by lay practitioners. For monks and nuns, there are more advanced and stricter precepts. The Five Precepts are nearly the same as the Five Precepts of Buddhism; however, there are minor differences to fit in with Chinese society.

According to the Zhengtong daozang (1445)[full citation needed], the five basic precepts are:

The first precept: No Killing;
The second precept: No Stealing;
The third precept: No Sexual Misconduct;
The fourth precept: No False Speech;
The fifth precept: No Taking of Intoxicants.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_precepts_(Taoism)
These precepts of Taoism could be just copycat of introduced Mahayana doctrine in ancient China.

And Taoism gods like alcohol, they are many stories in their scriptures on how these gods and goddesses taught the Taoists in ancient China how to make elixir or divine wine or alchemist pills (Chinese language: Lian Dan) for attaining divine powers.
fd411df5cece49ac94fe1156275673e5.jpg
Chinese god: Zhang Tian Shi and liquor

2fd7b8d13dd94bd68ffa54e00bd7a03c.jpeg
"Lian Dan" practice

v2-9d8fbf6fc72bd177f99c16959c3c1b21_1440w.jpg
Zheng Yi sect priests of Taoism don't practice "Five precepts" as they drink alcohol too. Just like laymen.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
pegembara
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Re: Tao

Post by pegembara »

The Master gives himself up to whatever the moment brings. He knows that he is going to die, and he has nothing left to hold on to: no illusions in his mind, no resistances in his body. He doesn’t think about his actions; they flow from the core of his being. He holds nothing back from life; therefore he is ready for death, as a man is ready for sleep after a good day’s work.

https://www.sloww.co/tao-te-ching/

There are no painful mental states, chieftain,
in one without longing.
In one whose fetters are ended,
all fears are overcome.
With the ending of [craving]
the guide to becoming,
when phenomena are seen
for what they are,
then just as in the laying down of a burden,
there's no fear in death.

I've lived well the holy life,
well-developed the path.
Death holds no fear for me.
It's like the end of a disease.

I've lived well the holy life,
well-developed the path,
seen states of becoming
as devoid of allure,
like poison spit out
after it's drunk.

One gone to the far shore
without clinging
without effluent
his task completed,
welcomes the ending of life,
as if freed from a place of execution.
Having attained the supreme Rightness,
unconcerned with all the world,
as if released from a burning house,
he doesn't sorrow at death.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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