Tao

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22395
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Tao

Post by Ceisiwr »

How similar is the concept of Tao to the Dhamma?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10167
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Tao

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:39 am How similar is the concept of Tao to the Dhamma?
I've heard both being described as a "natural law".
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 4529
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Tao

Post by Dan74 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:39 am How similar is the concept of Tao to the Dhamma?
You need to define what you mean by Tao. Are you taking the classical writings by Lao Tzu, I Ching and Chuang Tzu? Or many later works?

Some scholars believe them (the classics) to have been influenced by Zen teachers, others think the influence is the other way around, but there is some overlap, I think. So again, which Dhamma? Zen Dharma, yes, some similarity. Therevadan Dhamma? I don't see so many similarities, but this is not to say that the two are incompatible.
_/|\_
User avatar
NotMe
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: Tao

Post by NotMe »

The Tao translates as The Way, correct?

Is it anything like the NEFP?

Metta

:anjali:
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22395
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Tao

Post by Ceisiwr »

Dan74 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:39 am How similar is the concept of Tao to the Dhamma?
You need to define what you mean by Tao. Are you taking the classical writings by Lao Tzu, I Ching and Chuang Tzu? Or many later works?

Some scholars believe them (the classics) to have been influenced by Zen teachers, others think the influence is the other way around, but there is some overlap, I think. So again, which Dhamma? Zen Dharma, yes, some similarity. Therevadan Dhamma? I don't see so many similarities, but this is not to say that the two are incompatible.
I'm only familiar with the Tao Te Ching and the Zhuangzi. Is there much of an overlap between the Tao and dependent origination?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
Posts: 2176
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:06 pm

Re: Tao

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:23 pm ... Is there much of an overlap between the Tao and dependent origination?
...




This may be somewhat related, regarding DO (around page 103, imo) in the book:
The Prajna Paramita Heart Sutra
Translated from Sanskrit into Chinese By Tripitaka Master Hsuan Tsang)
Commentary By Grand Master T’an Hsu
Translated Into English
By Venerable Dharma Master Lok To
Edited by K’un Li, Shih and Dr. Frank G. French
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/heart_s2.pdf
:
  • Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Tue Dec 22, 2020 4:34 am
    form wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:37 pm
    Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:56 pm While looking for Ven. Nagarjuna's interpretations, I have come across Taoist version of Heart Sutra, and found Taoist interpretations seem more Buddhistic than some Mahayana sects, apart from the Tao, of course. I saw a post of similar opinion, may be on DWT, quite a while ago.
    ...
    Can u show me the taoist version of the heart sutra? I have never heard of it before.
    I think I can find again; maybe still in my tablet. I'll update soon, if possible.



    Edited (added):
    =========================
    Yep, here:


    The Prajna Paramita Heart Sutra
    Translated from Sanskrit into Chinese By Tripitaka Master Hsuan Tsang)
    Commentary By Grand Master T’an Hsu
    Translated Into English
    By Venerable Dharma Master Lok To
    Edited by K’un Li, Shih and Dr. Frank G. French
    http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/heart_s2.pdf

    From explanation of DO 12 links:
    • The pratyekabuddha, understanding the source of defilement and of birth and death and on hearing the Dharma of the Twelve Links in the Chain of Causation, will generate the mind of Tao and practice to end his or her own suffering. He or she will attain the path and fruit of the Middle Vehicle, thereby ending the allotment of birth and death.
    • In other words, the Bodhisattva deeply practiced the Prajna Paramita – i.e., the root of Ultimate Reality – and attained the supreme Tao, realizing that the skandhas are empty of self. To arrive at that stage is Enlightenment, the state completely clear of any turbidity whatsoever. From then on, all dharmas are understood as being identical with one’s True Nature. When that level is attained, the mind comprehends the universe as the Self and the Self as the universe. The grand view is boundless!
    There are quite a few instances of tao in that book.

    ...
  • Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta wrote: Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:11 am
    form wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:36 pm ...

    Dun look like a translation to me. It is more of a inserting Tao definitions and own theories into the heart sutra.
    It's "Commentary By Grand Master T’an Hsu" on Heart Sutra,in some Taoist way. And,as I've said, apart from Tao [and Self/Universe], the explanations seems more anatta-ish than some Mahayana sects [and, even some Theravada sects ... relating to "eternal citta].

    ...
:heart:
Last edited by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta on Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
𝓑𝓾𝓭𝓭𝓱𝓪 𝓗𝓪𝓭 𝓤𝓷𝓮𝓺𝓾𝓲𝓿𝓸𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓓𝓮𝓬𝓵𝓪𝓻𝓮𝓭 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽
  • Iᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ Sᴏᴜʟ ɪs Oᴜᴛᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴀɴ Uᴛᴛᴇʀʟʏ Fᴏᴏʟɪsʜ Vɪᴇᴡ
    V. Nanananda

𝓐𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓽ā 𝓜𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓣𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓘𝓼
  • Nᴏ sᴜᴄʜ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴀs ᴀ Sᴇʟғ, Sᴏᴜʟ, Eɢᴏ, Sᴘɪʀɪᴛ, ᴏʀ Āᴛᴍᴀɴ
    V. Buddhādasa
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17188
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Tao

Post by DNS »

Dan74 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:35 pm Some scholars believe them (the classics) to have been influenced by Zen teachers, others think the influence is the other way around, but there is some overlap, I think. So again, which Dhamma? Zen Dharma, yes, some similarity. Therevadan Dhamma? I don't see so many similarities, but this is not to say that the two are incompatible.
A rough estimate, Venn diagram I created a while back:

Image

The Buddhist part that overlaps Taoism would be mostly Chan and Zen. The Buddhist part that overlaps Jainism would be Theravada.
Jack19990101
Posts: 714
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:40 am

Re: Tao

Post by Jack19990101 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:39 am How similar is the concept of Tao to the Dhamma?
I think they are the same upon the ultimate reality.
The training is different.
Tao 's path is lack of folds, not a step by step systematic progressive path.
It promotes complete surrendering of control - non-action.
It also takes on an attitude of cold standoff observation toward worldly affairs.
In essence, one mimics an awaken mind, until it is a habit. Habit then matures into the Way.
Although Tao doesn't promote anti-compassion, but it basically doesn't believe companionate attitude toward world, is leading to the Way.

Their method to samadhi - described in The Secret of the Golden Flower, looks legit enough for me too. It talks quite a bit on energy flow which Sutta doesn't.

I think i have read only 3 books, understanding is somehow superficial, but in overall, what it points to, is same as Sutta does imo
Jack19990101
Posts: 714
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:40 am

Re: Tao

Post by Jack19990101 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:23 pm
Dan74 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:39 am How similar is the concept of Tao to the Dhamma?
You need to define what you mean by Tao. Are you taking the classical writings by Lao Tzu, I Ching and Chuang Tzu? Or many later works?

Some scholars believe them (the classics) to have been influenced by Zen teachers, others think the influence is the other way around, but there is some overlap, I think. So again, which Dhamma? Zen Dharma, yes, some similarity. Therevadan Dhamma? I don't see so many similarities, but this is not to say that the two are incompatible.
I'm only familiar with the Tao Te Ching and the Zhuangzi. Is there much of an overlap between the Tao and dependent origination?
No dependent origination - this is unique to Sutta which is as far as I can see.
Tao's founder didn't even prescribe a path. His scripture is all talks on wisdom.
The samadhi training is work of his student.
User avatar
NotMe
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: Tao

Post by NotMe »

Jack19990101 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:52 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:23 pm
Dan74 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:35 pm

You need to define what you mean by Tao. Are you taking the classical writings by Lao Tzu, I Ching and Chuang Tzu? Or many later works?

Some scholars believe them (the classics) to have been influenced by Zen teachers, others think the influence is the other way around, but there is some overlap, I think. So again, which Dhamma? Zen Dharma, yes, some similarity. Therevadan Dhamma? I don't see so many similarities, but this is not to say that the two are incompatible.
I'm only familiar with the Tao Te Ching and the Zhuangzi. Is there much of an overlap between the Tao and dependent origination?
No dependent origination - this is unique to Sutta which is as far as I can see.
Tao's founder didn't even prescribe a path. His scripture is all talks on wisdom.
The samadhi training is work of his student.
Is nibbana the goal? Or some other word for the wordless?

Metta

:anjali:

edit to add: like the permanent end of suffering?
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17188
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Tao

Post by DNS »

I'm not an expert on Taoism, but from limited understanding of the main points:

Both have impermanent gods, worthy of veneration.
Both don't have a personal-creator-God.
Both have meditation traditions.
Both have a concept of kamma (for Taoists it's when being off-track from the Tao).

Main difference is that Buddhism is other-worldly, focusing on liberation, freedom from samsara; while Taoism focuses on good health and exercise and the here-and-now.
User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 4529
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm
Location: Switzerland

Re: Tao

Post by Dan74 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:23 pm
Dan74 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:35 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:39 am How similar is the concept of Tao to the Dhamma?
You need to define what you mean by Tao. Are you taking the classical writings by Lao Tzu, I Ching and Chuang Tzu? Or many later works?

Some scholars believe them (the classics) to have been influenced by Zen teachers, others think the influence is the other way around, but there is some overlap, I think. So again, which Dhamma? Zen Dharma, yes, some similarity. Therevadan Dhamma? I don't see so many similarities, but this is not to say that the two are incompatible.
I'm only familiar with the Tao Te Ching and the Zhuangzi. Is there much of an overlap between the Tao and dependent origination?
I guess the Taoist philosophy of according with the Way, which is all-pervasive, is related to dependent origination, but looks at it from another angle completely.
_/|\_
Jack19990101
Posts: 714
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:40 am

Re: Tao

Post by Jack19990101 »

NotMe wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 4:54 pm

Is nibbana the goal? Or some other word for the wordless?

Metta

:anjali:

edit to add: like the permanent end of suffering?
I don't think his founder describes a goal at all.
It is more like - how to live by the Way.
The scriptures are made of short stories, followed by a comment from LaoTzu or ZhuangTzu. In a format of childhood fable.
Sometime, it is a rhetoric question, inspire ppl to contemplate.
It doesn't feel a teaching, but rather a casual conversation over a coffee.

They both feel very pure.
ZhuangTzu's verses are very enjoyable. One can have a good, light time over it.

I have zero idea on the later development of Taoism tho.
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Tao

Post by cappuccino »

Taoism is about virtue


You need virtue first of all
befriend
Posts: 2284
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:39 am

Re: Tao

Post by befriend »

I read some of the history of China during Lao tzus existence and it was in political disarray and people were trying to find some harmony in the country and a lot of different philosophies popped up because of the chaos. to me I think Taoism is like a wise persons reaction to Confucianism it's about living in tune with nature and others not about obeying rules. It's very zen and kind of theravadan, when your being mindful it's harder to do bad things because mindfulness is morally wholesome. This living in the present moment attitude is about when your doing something swing your attention back to what your doing eventually if you do this enough the correct action/response will come by itself regarding any situation. According to zen maybe this is what is meant by wu Wei or effortless action.
Last edited by befriend on Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
Post Reply