The illusion of an "observer" is created by the reflexivity inherent in every citta.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:49 pmAgreed, but there is still the question of who or what is observing the aggregates in this way.pegembara wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:44 pmA thought once observed becomes an object. Anything observed is not the subject. Hence the five aggregates are not self when properly observed.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:57 pm
How so? A thought can be observed, but does not itself observe - it's a subject, not an object.
And of course most observing is done without the need for thoughts. Thoughts are a sort of internal commentary about what we observe.
To put it another way, what is the observer exactly?
I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.
Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.
you are observing these words
Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.
I have not denied the illusion created by the reflexivity inherent in every citta. Also I don't deny conventional speech.
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.
what philosophy are you following?
Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.
Be mindful aware of self view arising peaking and passing?
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.
Wrong question again. The activity itself creates the perception of an observer. Eg. Thinking creates a perception of a thinker. Not the other way round.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:39 pmHow does a sankhara observe the aggregates? Please explain.pegembara wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:11 pmYou asked the wrong question and expect an answer. You keep stepping back and can never find the observer. The closest answer is that the observer is just a construction or sankhara.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:49 pm
Agreed, but there is still the question of who or what is observing the aggregates in this way.
To put it another way, what is the observer exactly?
There’s seeing but what is actually doing the seeing? Nothing but seeing happens when the right conditions are present.
You are not a dancer. You’re being danced.
You don’t breathe. You’re being breathed.
You don’t digest food or pee!
“You” don’t have to be present all the time.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.
So in satipatthana practice, an "illusion" is observing the four frames? Really?SteRo wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:17 pmThe illusion of an "observer" is created by the reflexivity inherent in every citta.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:49 pmAgreed, but there is still the question of who or what is observing the aggregates in this way.
To put it another way, what is the observer exactly?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.
Again, you're not actually answering the question I posed.pegembara wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:11 pmWrong question again. The activity itself creates the perception of an observer. Eg. Thinking creates a perception of a thinker. Not the other way round.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:39 pmHow does a sankhara observe the aggregates? Please explain.pegembara wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:11 pm
You asked the wrong question and expect an answer. You keep stepping back and can never find the observer. The closest answer is that the observer is just a construction or sankhara.
There’s seeing but what is actually doing the seeing? Nothing but seeing happens when the right conditions are present.
You are not a dancer. You’re being danced.
You don’t breathe. You’re being breathed.
You don’t digest food or pee!
“You” don’t have to be present all the time.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.
So what are we looking for? How do we know self-view is arising, peaking and passing?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.
You are asking "How does seeing see?"Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:04 amAgain, you're not actually answering the question I posed.pegembara wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:11 pmWrong question again. The activity itself creates the perception of an observer. Eg. Thinking creates a perception of a thinker. Not the other way round.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:39 pm
How does a sankhara observe the aggregates? Please explain.
You are not a dancer. You’re being danced.
You don’t breathe. You’re being breathed.
You don’t digest food or pee!
“You” don’t have to be present all the time.
I am saying there is seeing but no "thing" that sees.
Let me ask you in return.
Where is seeing taking place conceptually? Is it out there, behind your eyes, in your brain or all of them at once?
How thus ... (feel in the blank) see?
Or what is doing the seeing?
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.
That's not what I'm asking at all. I'm asking what is observing the aggregates rising and falling, and what is observing the four frames in satipatthana practice, etc.pegembara wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:05 amYou are asking "How does seeing see?"Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:04 amAgain, you're not actually answering the question I posed.pegembara wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:11 pm
Wrong question again. The activity itself creates the perception of an observer. Eg. Thinking creates a perception of a thinker. Not the other way round.
You are not a dancer. You’re being danced.
You don’t breathe. You’re being breathed.
You don’t digest food or pee!
“You” don’t have to be present all the time.
I am saying there is seeing but no "thing" that sees.
Let me ask you in return.
Where is seeing taking place conceptually? Is it out there, behind your eyes, in your brain or all of them at once?
How thus ... (feel in the blank) see?
Or what is doing the seeing?
You suggested it was a sankhara, so I asked how this actually happens. How can a fabrication observe anything?
As for seeing, the suttas say it arises in dependence upon eye and visible form. But this doesn't answer the question I am posing.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.
How can a fabrication observe anything is precisely the point I am making. Your question is not valid.
Like the question- It is raining. What is raining?
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.35/en/bod ... ight=false
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Like the question- It is raining. What is raining?
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.35/en/bod ... ight=false
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.
Starting is half of the journey, you're better off than most people. So cheer up. A Brahma is a shapeshifter, this is probably the easiest example of selflessness. Brahma's literally have no identity left, they can be anything they want to be. They can manifest anything from thin air. They read minds, this is why language is non existent in jhanaloka. They have no parents, no name, no tribe, no nothing. The only thing they have are their immense powers, the bliss and their longevity.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.
I think the question is perfectly valid. But to follow your logic, what does the activity of observing arise in dependence upon?pegembara wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:26 pm How can a fabrication observe anything is precisely the point I am making. Your question is not valid.
Like the question- It is raining. What is raining?
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.35/en/bod ... ight=false
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.
Some part (or several parts in joint) ie sanna n vinnana seems to be observing the aggregates .
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