I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

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SteRo
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by SteRo »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:49 pm
pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:44 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:57 pm

How so? A thought can be observed, but does not itself observe - it's a subject, not an object.
And of course most observing is done without the need for thoughts. Thoughts are a sort of internal commentary about what we observe.
A thought once observed becomes an object. Anything observed is not the subject. Hence the five aggregates are not self when properly observed.
Agreed, but there is still the question of who or what is observing the aggregates in this way.
To put it another way, what is the observer exactly?
The illusion of an "observer" is created by the reflexivity inherent in every citta.
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cappuccino
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by cappuccino »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:17 pm The illusion of an "observer" is created by
you are observing these words

:shrug:
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by SteRo »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:55 pm
SteRo wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:17 pm The illusion of an "observer" is created by
you are observing these words

:shrug:
I have not denied the illusion created by the reflexivity inherent in every citta. Also I don't deny conventional speech.
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cappuccino
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by cappuccino »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:02 pm I have not denied the illusion created by
what philosophy are you following?
befriend
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by befriend »

Be mindful aware of self view arising peaking and passing? :shrug:
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by pegembara »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:39 pm
pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:11 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:49 pm

Agreed, but there is still the question of who or what is observing the aggregates in this way.
To put it another way, what is the observer exactly?
You asked the wrong question and expect an answer. You keep stepping back and can never find the observer. The closest answer is that the observer is just a construction or sankhara.

There’s seeing but what is actually doing the seeing? Nothing but seeing happens when the right conditions are present.
How does a sankhara observe the aggregates? Please explain.
Wrong question again. The activity itself creates the perception of an observer. Eg. Thinking creates a perception of a thinker. Not the other way round.

You are not a dancer. You’re being danced.
You don’t breathe. You’re being breathed.
You don’t digest food or pee!

“You” don’t have to be present all the time.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by Spiny Norman »

SteRo wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:17 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:49 pm
pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:44 pm

A thought once observed becomes an object. Anything observed is not the subject. Hence the five aggregates are not self when properly observed.
Agreed, but there is still the question of who or what is observing the aggregates in this way.
To put it another way, what is the observer exactly?
The illusion of an "observer" is created by the reflexivity inherent in every citta.
So in satipatthana practice, an "illusion" is observing the four frames? Really?
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Spiny Norman
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by Spiny Norman »

pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:11 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:39 pm
pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:11 pm

You asked the wrong question and expect an answer. You keep stepping back and can never find the observer. The closest answer is that the observer is just a construction or sankhara.

There’s seeing but what is actually doing the seeing? Nothing but seeing happens when the right conditions are present.
How does a sankhara observe the aggregates? Please explain.
Wrong question again. The activity itself creates the perception of an observer. Eg. Thinking creates a perception of a thinker. Not the other way round.

You are not a dancer. You’re being danced.
You don’t breathe. You’re being breathed.
You don’t digest food or pee!

“You” don’t have to be present all the time.
Again, you're not actually answering the question I posed.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by Spiny Norman »

befriend wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:30 pm Be mindful aware of self view arising peaking and passing? :shrug:
So what are we looking for? How do we know self-view is arising, peaking and passing?
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pegembara
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by pegembara »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:04 am
pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:11 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:39 pm

How does a sankhara observe the aggregates? Please explain.
Wrong question again. The activity itself creates the perception of an observer. Eg. Thinking creates a perception of a thinker. Not the other way round.

You are not a dancer. You’re being danced.
You don’t breathe. You’re being breathed.
You don’t digest food or pee!

“You” don’t have to be present all the time.
Again, you're not actually answering the question I posed.
You are asking "How does seeing see?"
I am saying there is seeing but no "thing" that sees.

Let me ask you in return.
Where is seeing taking place conceptually? Is it out there, behind your eyes, in your brain or all of them at once?
How thus ... (feel in the blank) see?
Or what is doing the seeing?
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by Spiny Norman »

pegembara wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 7:05 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:04 am
pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:11 pm

Wrong question again. The activity itself creates the perception of an observer. Eg. Thinking creates a perception of a thinker. Not the other way round.

You are not a dancer. You’re being danced.
You don’t breathe. You’re being breathed.
You don’t digest food or pee!

“You” don’t have to be present all the time.
Again, you're not actually answering the question I posed.
You are asking "How does seeing see?"
I am saying there is seeing but no "thing" that sees.

Let me ask you in return.
Where is seeing taking place conceptually? Is it out there, behind your eyes, in your brain or all of them at once?
How thus ... (feel in the blank) see?
Or what is doing the seeing?
That's not what I'm asking at all. I'm asking what is observing the aggregates rising and falling, and what is observing the four frames in satipatthana practice, etc.

You suggested it was a sankhara, so I asked how this actually happens. How can a fabrication observe anything?

As for seeing, the suttas say it arises in dependence upon eye and visible form. But this doesn't answer the question I am posing.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
pegembara
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by pegembara »

How can a fabrication observe anything is precisely the point I am making. Your question is not valid.

Like the question- It is raining. What is raining?

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.35/en/bod ... ight=false

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
wenjaforever
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by wenjaforever »

Starting is half of the journey, you're better off than most people. So cheer up. A Brahma is a shapeshifter, this is probably the easiest example of selflessness. Brahma's literally have no identity left, they can be anything they want to be. They can manifest anything from thin air. They read minds, this is why language is non existent in jhanaloka. They have no parents, no name, no tribe, no nothing. The only thing they have are their immense powers, the bliss and their longevity.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
Spiny Norman
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by Spiny Norman »

pegembara wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:26 pm How can a fabrication observe anything is precisely the point I am making. Your question is not valid.

Like the question- It is raining. What is raining?

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.35/en/bod ... ight=false

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I think the question is perfectly valid. But to follow your logic, what does the activity of observing arise in dependence upon?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
asahi
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by asahi »

Some part (or several parts in joint) ie sanna n vinnana seems to be observing the aggregates .
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