I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

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Gami47
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I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by Gami47 »

Thanks. :namaste:
sakyan
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by sakyan »

Where are you feeling stuck? What kind of doubt arose in you?
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NotMe
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by NotMe »

Study all you can about anatta - not self. Understanding what is not self leaves ??? as self.

Metta

:anjali:

edit to add: NotMe is the handle used 'cause there is more of NotMe understood - than 'me' - very illusive.
Gami47
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by Gami47 »

sakyan wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:09 pm Where are you feeling stuck? What kind of doubt arose in you?
I try to let go of self view, but i keep returning to self view.
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SDC
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by SDC »

Do you follow the precepts? Do you keep your desires in check?

Uprooting self view is not a decision, it’s a development. That could be part of what you’re struggling with.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
User13866
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by User13866 »

Start by learning these texts
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, there are these three pathways of language, pathways of designation, pathways of description, that are unmixed, that were never mixed, that are not being mixed, that will not be mixed, that are not rejected by wise ascetics and brahmins. What three?

“Whatever form, bhikkhus, has passed, ceased, changed: the term, label, and description ‘was’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘will be.’

“Whatever feeling … Whatever perception … Whatever volitional formations … Whatever consciousness has passed, ceased, changed: the term, label, and description ‘was’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘will be.’

“Whatever form, bhikkhus, has not been born, has not become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘will be’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘was.’

“Whatever feeling … Whatever perception … Whatever volitional formations … Whatever consciousness has not been born, has not become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘will be’ applies to it, not the term ‘is’ or the term ‘was.’

“Whatever form, bhikkhus, has been born, has become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘is’ applies to it, not the term ‘was’ or the term ‘will be.’

“Whatever feeling … Whatever perception … Whatever volitional formations … Whatever consciousness has been born, has become manifest: the term, label, and description ‘is’ applies to it, not the term ‘was’ or the term ‘will be.’

“These, bhikkhus, are the three pathways of language, pathways of designation, pathways of description, that are unmixed, that were never mixed, that are not being mixed, that will not be mixed, that are not rejected by wise ascetics and brahmins.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.62/en/bod ... ight=false
"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.

"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

"The instructed disciple of the noble ones, [however,] attends carefully & appropriately right there at the dependent co-arising:

"'When this is, that is.

"'From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

"'When this isn't, that isn't.

"'From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
What do you think? Would a consecrated, noble-warrior king — such as King Pasenadi of Kosala or King Ajātasattu Vedehiputta of Magadha — wield the power in his own domain to execute those who deserve execution, to fine those who deserve to be fined, and to banish those who deserve to be banished?"

"Yes, Master Gotama, he would wield the power in his own domain to execute those who deserve execution, to fine those who deserve to be fined, and to banish those who deserve to be banished. Even these oligarchic groups, such as the Vajjians & Mallans, wield the power in their own domains to execute those who deserve execution, to fine those who deserve to be fined, and to banish those who deserve to be banished, [5] to say nothing of a consecrated, noble-warrior king such as King Pasenadi of Kosala, or King Ajātasattu Vedehiputta of Magadha. He would wield it, and he would deserve to wield it."

"What do you think, Aggivessana? When you say, 'Form is my self,' do you wield power over that form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus'?"

When this was said, Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son was silent.

A second time, the Blessed One said to Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son: "What do you think, Aggivessana? When you say, 'Form is my self,' do you wield power over that form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus'?"

When this was said, Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son was silent a second time.

Then the Blessed One said to him, "Answer now, Aggivessana. This is not the time to be silent. When anyone doesn't answer when asked a legitimate question by the Tathāgata up to three times, his head splits into seven pieces right here."

Now on that occasion the spirit (yakkha) Vajirapāṇin [Thunderbolt-in-Hand], carrying an iron thunderbolt, was poised in the air above Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son, (thinking,) "If Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son doesn't answer when asked a legitimate question by the Blessed One up to three times, I will split his head into seven pieces right here."

The Blessed One saw the spirit Vajirapāṇin, as did Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son. So Saccaka — afraid, terrified, his hair standing on end — seeking shelter in the Blessed One, seeking a cave/asylum in the Blessed One, seeking refuge in the Blessed One — said to the Blessed One, "Let Master Gotama ask me. I will answer."

"What do you think, Aggivessana? When you say, 'Form is my self,' do you wield power over that form: 'May my form be thus, may my form not be thus'?"

"No, Master Gotama."

"Pay attention, Aggivessana, and answer (only) after having paid attention! What you said after isn't consistent with what you said before, nor is what you said before consistent with what you said after.

"What do you think, Aggivessana? When you say, 'Feeling is my self... Perception is my self... Fabrications are my self... Consciousness is my self,' do you wield power over that consciousness: 'May my consciousness be thus, may my consciousness not be thus'?"

"No, Master Gotama."

"Pay attention, Aggivessana, and answer (only) after having paid attention! What you said after isn't consistent with what you said before, nor is what you said before consistent with what you said after.

"What do you think, Aggivessana? Is form constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, Master Gotama."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, Master Gotama."

"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, Master Gotama."

"...Is feeling constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, Master Gotama."...

"...Is perception constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, Master Gotama."...

"...Are fabrications constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, Master Gotama."...

"What do you think, Aggivessana? Is consciousness constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, Master Gotama."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, Master Gotama."

"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, Master Gotama."

"What do you think, Aggivessana? When one adheres to stress, holds to stress, is attached to stress, and envisions of stress that 'This is mine; this is my self; this is what I am,' would he comprehend stress or dwell having totally destroyed stress?"

"How could that be, Master Gotama? No, Master Gotama."

"That being the case, Aggivessana, don't you adhere to stress, hold to stress, aren't you attached to stress, and don't you envision of stress that 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"How could that not be the case, Master Gotama? Yes, Master Gotama."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard form as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, lord."

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

"No, lord."

"Very good, Anuradha. Very good. Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Remember them and see if you can come to agreement.
User13866
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by User13866 »

Don't get confused by words like 'volitional formations', 'stress' and 'perception'. It's not important at this point.

Just keep it simple 'mind' & 'body' and anything mental & bodily.

Instead of stress/suffering [dukkha] you can use the word 'not good' for simplicity.

Also don't allow people to confuse you, read & learn the sutta.
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Sam Vara
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by Sam Vara »

Maybe exhortation and encouragement to persist with the practice can help, but there isn't really an argument or a form of words outside of the Buddha's teachings which can "make" you let go. You might want to look at suttas like the anattalakkhana sutta, and follow the argument through.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.59/en/bod ... ight=false

But you will also need to try to gain insight, rather than just understanding texts. Here is Bhikkhu Pesala in The War on Error, which I think you would do well to read.
http://www.aimwell.org/error.html#WrongViews
A third wrong-view, which is almost universal even among Buddhists, is the belief in a self or soul. Buddhists have been taught that the so-called self is illusory, but unless they have practised insight meditation to a considerable extent, the belief will persist. It is not entirely removed until the meditator realises nibbāna and becomes a Stream-winner, but a diligent meditator can gain insight into the Buddha’s teaching through direct personal experience. It is similar to the case of those who know how magic tricks are performed. If one does not know how illusionists perform their art, their tricks are extremely convincing. If one knows the secret, then one is not deceived, but the illusion is still very effective.

... with self-view(, t)he illusion is deeply rooted at the level of perception, so no amount of reading of Buddhist literature or listening to Dhamma talks will make much difference. We may be fully convinced on the intellectual level that the Buddha was Fully Enlightened and that his teaching is flawless, but that does not eradicate self-view. There is only one way to remove this serious error, and that is through practising insight meditation — seriously and intensively, not casually or occasionally.

The mind is exceedingly rapid. Without practising meditation seriously it won’t be possible for the average person to see through the illusion of self. Egoism is too deeply rooted and the belief in a self or person, “I” or “You,” is too convincing. The average person identifies strongly with his or her nationality or racial group. National pride, racial prejudice, and narrow-mindedness have a fertile breeding ground as long as this very serious error of self-view is not dissolved through the practice of insight meditation. It is a dangerous error because it takes the impermanent to be permanent, the unsatisfactory to be satisfactory, and that which is devoid of self to be a self. Anyone still holding this view will expend most of their energy in the pursuit of sensual pleasures. A monk may not pursue coarse sensual pleasures such as sex, music, or food, but he will still be striving to satisfy the ego by seeking praise and status. If he is lacking in basic morality, then he will seek material gain such as money, property, and other things that are unsuitable for one who claims to be a renunciate.

Among Buddhists as well as non-Buddhists, there are many degrees of ignorance regarding this so-called self. Even among well-informed Buddhists who have studied the Buddha’s teachings in depth, the illusion may persist and remain strong due to lack of insight into the workings of the mental and physical process. An uneducated person who has practised insight meditation effectively will have a better understanding than a learned person who has not practised meditation, because insight arises from direct experience of reality, not from conceptual thought.
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robertk
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by robertk »

Good you study as understanding anatta is what will answer the ultimate question of Life, the Universe, and Everything.
https://abhidhamma.org/wp-content/uploa ... y-Life.pdf
Is an easy to understand book that helps to explains this.
asahi
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by asahi »

Gami47 wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:05 pm Thanks. :namaste:
Maybe because you are thinking of it all the time but if you train mindfully , no chance for it to slip in .
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santa100
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by santa100 »

Gami47 wrote:I try to let go of self view, but i keep returning to self view.
There's no shortcut. Just have to keep cultivating Sila/Samadhi/Panna diligently and consistently. Afterall, only Sotapannas would be able to completely eliminate the 3 lower fetters: identity-view/sakkayaDitthi, doubt/vicikiccha, and wrong grasp of rules/silaBbataParamaso. For the rest of us worldlings, we all still have work to do when it comes to this self-view business to various degrees.
Ontheway
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by Ontheway »

What is a "Self"? What can be known as "Self"? :shrug:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
bpallister
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by bpallister »

that's a good question. is it just the five aggregates? is it ego? the body? the mind??
santa100
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by santa100 »

The "Self" doesn't require any fancy or deep philosophical definition. But it manifests itself when sh... gets real: someone comes and steal or rob all the money in your bank account, your house, your car, or "borrow" your wife and daughter for the night, etc. If anger and all kinds of afflictive emotions arise in you, you know it's there.
Ontheway
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by Ontheway »

Deep down you should know, these things aren't yours.

Your friends, your career, your wellbeing, your good feeling, your achievements, your money, your youth, your family, your husband, your girlfriend, your wife, your children, your pets, your belongings, your health, your merits and demerits, your meditative attainments, your body parts, even your life....are not yours.
Putta ma'tthi dhanam ma' tthi
iti balo vihannati
atta hi attano natthi
kuto putta kuto dhanam.

Verse 62: "I have sons, I have wealth"; with this the fool is afflicted. Indeed, he himself is not his own, how can sons and wealth be his?
- Dhammapada

So, what is there to be known as "mine, me, my self"? We should train ourselves to see things as just temporary. Then we can reduce our attachment.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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