Monk invest in share market

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Monk invest in share market

Post by asahi »

In Theravada tradition monk have a kappiya that assisting monk . But can monk ask kappiya to help invest the money from donation which kept in bank account to invest in share market ?

Is below quote found in vinaya ?
Monks have a duty of care to protect and maximise the benefit for supporters who offered donations for their requisites.
No bashing No gossiping
santa100
Posts: 6811
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Monk invest in share market

Post by santa100 »

asahi wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:18 am In Theravada tradition monk have a kappiya that assisting monk . But can monk ask kappiya to help invest the money from donation which kept in bank account to invest in share market ?

Is below quote found in vinaya ?
Monks have a duty of care to protect and maximise the benefit for supporters who offered donations for their requisites.
That's probably why the Vinaya forbid monk from receiving/handling money and any form of monetary transaction to prevent any further monetary management concerns like the above. Monks should stick to the Four Requisites, hence letting lay folks taking care of all monetary matters.
form
Posts: 3471
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Monk invest in share market

Post by form »

asahi wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:18 am In Theravada tradition monk have a kappiya that assisting monk . But can monk ask kappiya to help invest the money from donation which kept in bank account to invest in share market ?

Is below quote found in vinaya ?
Monks have a duty of care to protect and maximise the benefit for supporters who offered donations for their requisites.
Best to have a lay people committee to handle money. But on the other hand, if a monk goes out and pay his transport fare it should be allowed. If not, he will always need to trouble others.
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Monk invest in share market

Post by Ontheway »

Just let the laymen handle money.

Monks at best should keep only four requisites.

Lord Buddha don't have shares, follow the Buddha's path.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Monk invest in share market

Post by asahi »

santa100 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:18 am
asahi wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:18 am In Theravada tradition monk have a kappiya that assisting monk . But can monk ask kappiya to help invest the money from donation which kept in bank account to invest in share market ?

Is below quote found in vinaya ?
Monks have a duty of care to protect and maximise the benefit for supporters who offered donations for their requisites.
That's probably why the Vinaya forbid monk from receiving/handling money and any form of monetary transaction to prevent any further monetary management concerns like the above. Monks should stick to the Four Requisites, hence letting lay folks taking care of all monetary matters.
Are you saying monk are not suppose to direct his kappiya to use the money invest in share market ?
No bashing No gossiping
User13866
Posts: 1238
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:50 am

Re: Monk invest in share market

Post by User13866 »

It's very inappropriate.

A monk should in no way be telling the attendendent how to handle the robe-fund, even to the extent of merely saying "buy for me such-and-such a robe" one is merely allowed to inform them that one is in need of a robe.
8. In case a man or woman householder unrelated (to  the bhikkhu) prepares a robe fund for the sake of a bhikkhu, thinking, "Having purchased a robe with this robe fund, I will clothe the bhikkhu named so-and-so with a robe": If the bhikkhu, not previously invited, approaching (the householder) should make a stipulation with regard to the robe, saying, "It would be good indeed, sir, if you clothed me (with a robe), having purchased a robe of such-and-such a sort with this robe fund" — out of a desire for something fine — it is to be forfeited and confessed.

9. In case two householders — men or women — unrelated (to the bhikkhu) prepare separate robe funds for the sake of a bhikkhu, thinking, "Having purchased separate robes with these separate robe funds of ours, we will clothe the bhikkhu named so-and-so with robes": If the bhikkhu, not previously invited, approaching (them) should make a stipulation with regard to the robe, saying, "It would be good indeed, sirs, if you clothed me (with a robe), having purchased a robe of such-and-such a sort with these separate robe funds, the two (funds) together for one (robe)" — out of a desire for something fine — it is to be forfeited and confessed.

10. In case a king, a royal official, a brahman, or a householder sends a robe fund for the sake of a bhikkhu via a messenger, (saying,) "Having purchased a robe with this robe fund, clothe the bhikkhu named so-and-so with a robe": If the messenger, approaching the bhikkhu, should say, "This is a robe fund being delivered for the sake of the venerable one. May the venerable one accept this robe fund," then the bhikkhu is to tell the messenger: "We do not accept robe funds, my friend. We accept robes (robe-cloth) as are proper according to season."

If the messenger should say to the bhikkhu, "Does the venerable one have a steward?" then, bhikkhus, if the bhikkhu desires a robe, he may indicate a steward — either a monastery attendant or a lay follower — (saying,) "That, my friend, is the bhikkhus' steward."

If the messenger, having instructed the steward and going to the bhikkhu, should say, "I have instructed the steward the venerable one indicated. May the venerable one go (to him) and he will clothe you with a robe in season," then the bhikkhu, desiring a robe and approaching the steward, may prompt and remind him two or three times, "I have need of a robe." Should (the steward) produce the robe after being prompted and reminded two or three times, that is good.

If he should not produce the robe, (the bhikkhu) should stand in silence four times, five times, six times at most for that purpose. Should (the steward) produce the robe after (the bhikkhu) has stood in silence for the purpose four, five, six times at most, that is good.

If he should not produce the robe (at that point), should he then produce the robe after (the bhikkhu) has endeavored further than that, it is to be forfeited and confessed.

If he should not produce (the robe), then the bhikkhu himself should go to the place from which the robe fund was brought, or a messenger should be sent (to say), "The robe fund that you, venerable sirs, sent for the sake of the bhikkhu has given no benefit to the bhikkhu at all. May the you be united with what is yours. May what is yours not be lost." This is the proper course here.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... -pati.html
I guess if the donors want to protect the fund from inflation then just buy the robes.
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Monk invest in share market

Post by asahi »

User13866 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:39 am It's very inappropriate.

A monk should in no way be telling the attendendent how to handle the robe-fund, even to the extent of merely saying "buy for me such-and-such a robe" one is merely allowed to inform them that one is in need of a robe.
8. In case a man or woman householder unrelated (to  the bhikkhu) prepares a robe fund for the sake of a bhikkhu, thinking, "Having purchased a robe with this robe fund, I will clothe the bhikkhu named so-and-so with a robe": If the bhikkhu, not previously invited, approaching (the householder) should make a stipulation with regard to the robe, saying, "It would be good indeed, sir, if you clothed me (with a robe), having purchased a robe of such-and-such a sort with this robe fund" — out of a desire for something fine — it is to be forfeited and confessed.

9. In case two householders — men or women — unrelated (to the bhikkhu) prepare separate robe funds for the sake of a bhikkhu, thinking, "Having purchased separate robes with these separate robe funds of ours, we will clothe the bhikkhu named so-and-so with robes": If the bhikkhu, not previously invited, approaching (them) should make a stipulation with regard to the robe, saying, "It would be good indeed, sirs, if you clothed me (with a robe), having purchased a robe of such-and-such a sort with these separate robe funds, the two (funds) together for one (robe)" — out of a desire for something fine — it is to be forfeited and confessed.

10. In case a king, a royal official, a brahman, or a householder sends a robe fund for the sake of a bhikkhu via a messenger, (saying,) "Having purchased a robe with this robe fund, clothe the bhikkhu named so-and-so with a robe": If the messenger, approaching the bhikkhu, should say, "This is a robe fund being delivered for the sake of the venerable one. May the venerable one accept this robe fund," then the bhikkhu is to tell the messenger: "We do not accept robe funds, my friend. We accept robes (robe-cloth) as are proper according to season."

If the messenger should say to the bhikkhu, "Does the venerable one have a steward?" then, bhikkhus, if the bhikkhu desires a robe, he may indicate a steward — either a monastery attendant or a lay follower — (saying,) "That, my friend, is the bhikkhus' steward."

If the messenger, having instructed the steward and going to the bhikkhu, should say, "I have instructed the steward the venerable one indicated. May the venerable one go (to him) and he will clothe you with a robe in season," then the bhikkhu, desiring a robe and approaching the steward, may prompt and remind him two or three times, "I have need of a robe." Should (the steward) produce the robe after being prompted and reminded two or three times, that is good.

If he should not produce the robe, (the bhikkhu) should stand in silence four times, five times, six times at most for that purpose. Should (the steward) produce the robe after (the bhikkhu) has stood in silence for the purpose four, five, six times at most, that is good.

If he should not produce the robe (at that point), should he then produce the robe after (the bhikkhu) has endeavored further than that, it is to be forfeited and confessed.

If he should not produce (the robe), then the bhikkhu himself should go to the place from which the robe fund was brought, or a messenger should be sent (to say), "The robe fund that you, venerable sirs, sent for the sake of the bhikkhu has given no benefit to the bhikkhu at all. May the you be united with what is yours. May what is yours not be lost." This is the proper course here.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... -pati.html
I guess if the donors want to protect the fund from inflation then just buy the robes.
Was the Buddha set the rule that the fund limited to purchase robe and not other thing ?
No bashing No gossiping
santa100
Posts: 6811
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Monk invest in share market

Post by santa100 »

asahi wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:00 am Are you saying monk are not suppose to direct his kappiya to use the money invest in share market ?
That is correct. A good monk who adheres to the Vinaya rules wouldn't even receive/handle money to begin with.
User13866
Posts: 1238
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:50 am

Re: Monk invest in share market

Post by User13866 »

asahi wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:24 am Was the Buddha set the rule that the fund limited to purchase robe and not other thing ?
Monk's are allowed certain requisites like robes, medicine and food.

So whatever is offered to the monk is of allowable items and whatever fund is established by the donor is for the purpose of providing those requisites.

If i go to a monk's assistant and tell him that i want to donate money for a monk's requisites then it's that, it's the assistant's duty to store these funds however he sees fit.

If i go to a monk's assistant and tell him 'here is money, i want you to invest it in this particular way and use this fund to supply the monk with requisites'.

This is allowable if the assistant wants to do it because this is an arrangement between two householders, has nothing to do with the monk.
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4646
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Monk invest in share market

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

User13866 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:39 amI guess if the donors want to protect the fund from inflation then just buy the robes.
If the donors wish to protect their donations from inflation, purchasing robes would be a foolish move. It would make more sense to purchase gold, or some other commodity that retains its value and is easily traded.

Most temples have a cupboard full of robes that never get worn. All that happens is that they get sold by the Trustees to donors on every special occasion, offered to the monks, then put back into the cupboard. Robes are allowable for monks, but cash is not. The robe-donors usually make a pious wish to get ordained in some future life, but seldom do it in this very life. They will get whatever they wish for. The trustees or kappiya can buy whatever the monks need with the funds. They have to pay the rent or mortgage on the monastery, utility bills, garden maintenance, etc.

One set of robes should last for at least five years. You may remember the account of Venerable Ānanda being criticised for accepting 500 sets of robes from a king. He then explained how the robes would be distributed to monks whose robes had worn thin, and the thin robes would be used as bed-sheets, the old bed-sheets would be used as floor cloths, etc. In this way, virtuous monks protect the gifts of donors from waste.

In modern times, bills have to be paid by a trust fund or kappiya. Donors generally donate to the trust fund or kappiya for all allowable requisites, not just for robes (though they can specify what the donation is for if they wish; e.g. to pay for travel or medical treatment).
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User13866
Posts: 1238
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:50 am

Re: Monk invest in share market

Post by User13866 »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:05 am
User13866 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:39 amI guess if the donors want to protect the fund from inflation then just buy the robes.
If the donors wish to protect their donations from inflation, purchasing robes would be a foolish move.

My point was merely that a robe remains a robe, doesn't become less of a robe due to inflation. It's a commodity not subject to inflation.

Whereas if one donated say 400$ for a nice woolen Sangati, and the price of wool goes up due to inflation, then that 400$ is no longer enough to buy a nice woolen robe.

In this country monks lack warm robes as they tend to get offered standard robes from Thailand and whatnot but the temperatures here can drop to -30c.
form
Posts: 3471
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Monk invest in share market

Post by form »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:05 am
User13866 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:39 amI guess if the donors want to protect the fund from inflation then just buy the robes.
If the donors wish to protect their donations from inflation, purchasing robes would be a foolish move. It would make more sense to purchase gold, or some other commodity that retains its value and is easily traded.

Most temples have a cupboard full of robes that never get worn. All that happens is that they get sold by the Trustees to donors on every special occasion, offered to the monks, then put back into the cupboard. Robes are allowable for monks, but cash is not. The robe-donors usually make a pious wish to get ordained in some future life, but seldom do it in this very life. They will get whatever they wish for. The trustees or kappiya can buy whatever the monks need with the funds. They have to pay the rent or mortgage on the monastery, utility bills, garden maintenance, etc.

One set of robes should last for at least five years. You may remember the account of Venerable Ānanda being criticised for accepting 500 sets of robes from a king. He then explained how the robes would be distributed to monks whose robes had worn thin, and the thin robes would be used as bed-sheets, the old bed-sheets would be used as floor cloths, etc. In this way, virtuous monks protect the gifts of donors from waste.

In modern times, bills have to be paid by a trust fund or kappiya. Donors generally donate to the trust fund or kappiya for all allowable requisites, not just for robes (though they can specify what the donation is for if they wish; e.g. to pay for travel or medical treatment).
A lot of Burmamese and Thai temples have big solid gold statues.
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Monk invest in share market

Post by asahi »

I didnt understand why robe already been offered can re-offer to monks again and again and kept in store . Isnt to purposely create an occasion for lay to offer robe to monks appears artificial ! Something not genuine and unnatural weird .
No bashing No gossiping
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4646
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Monk invest in share market

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

asahi wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:42 pmSomething not genuine and unnatural weird .
Yes, outwardly it seems quite superficial and pointless, but the merit depends on the intention of the donor. It is the donor's responsibility to maintain a wholesome mind while giving, and it is the monks' duty to guide the donors on how to cultivate a skilful attitude.
form wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:40 pm A lot of Burmese and Thai temples have big solid gold statues.
True, but no pious Buddhist would dare to scrape off some gold to pay for repairing the monastery. In the US, several monks were murdered by robbers looking for gold.

If you want to experience the real happiness of the Dhamma, focus on the essential meaning, not the exterior form. Devotees plaster gold leaf on the Mahāmuṇi Buddha, but the great sage can no longer be recognised. Do not trouble yourself with what others are doing, or not doing. This will not help your own practice. The purpose of a Buddha image is to remind you of the nine qualities of the Buddha.

He is worthy of offerings and reverence (Arahaṃ) due to being free from mental defilements, he is fully enlightened and perfect in every way (Sammāsambuddho), he is endowed with both knowledge and good conduct (Vijjācaraṇa Sampanno) so he does what he advises and leads by example, he is well-spoken (Sugato) saying only what is beneficial to others, he can see other realms of existence (Lokavidū) and the destinations of good and evil-doers, he is the incomparable trainer of trainable people (Anuttaropurisadammasārathī), the teacher of gods and mankind (Satthādevamanussānaṃ), awakened (Buddha) from ignorance, and Blessed (Bhagavā) with wealthy and powerful supporters and great disciples.

The Mahāmuṇi Buddha
Mahamuni Buddha.jpg
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Monk invest in share market

Post by asahi »

Now i can understand how this factitious robe offering in buddhism misled their followers or becomes injudicious . Buddha taught wisdom not to become dumb follower
:juggling:
No bashing No gossiping
Post Reply