The Four Noble Truths and The Lord's Prayer

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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soogar571
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The Four Noble Truths and The Lord's Prayer

Post by soogar571 »

4_noble_prayer_eng_img.PNG
The Four Noble Truths

(1) Suffering, as a noble truth

"Suffering, as a noble truth, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, sorrow and lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; association with the loathed is suffering, dissociation from the loved is suffering, not to get what one wants is suffering — in short, suffering is the five categories of clinging objects.

(2) The origin of suffering, as a noble truth

"The origin of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is the craving that produces renewal of being accompanied by enjoyment and lust, and enjoying this and that; in other words, craving for sensual desires, craving for being, craving for non-being.

(3) Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth

"Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is remainderless fading and ceasing, giving up, relinquishing, letting go and rejecting, of that same craving.

(4) The way leading to cessation of suffering

"The way leading to cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is simply the noble eightfold path, that is to say, right view, right intention; right speech, right action, right livelihood; right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

Setting Rolling the Wheel of Truth SN 56.11



The Lord's Prayer

9 "This, then, is how you should pray:

Our Father in heaven,

hallowed be your name,

10 your kingdom come,

your will be done,

on earth as it is in heaven.

11 Give us today our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts,

as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation,

but deliver us from the evil one.

(for yours is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever, Amen.

Matthew 6

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Ontheway
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Re: The Four Noble Truths and The Lord's Prayer

Post by Ontheway »

The point is?

Are you equating Yahweh the tribal deity with the Fully Enlightened One?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Jhana4
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Re: The Four Noble Truths and The Lord's Prayer

Post by Jhana4 »

Nicely done chart.

I don't see any similarities between the items you put side by side.

I don't think the two fine things you are comparing are similar at all.

No disrespect meant.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
SarathW
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Re: The Four Noble Truths and The Lord's Prayer

Post by SarathW »

This is like saying that chalk and cheese are the same.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SteRo
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Re: The Four Noble Truths and The Lord's Prayer

Post by SteRo »

soogar571 wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:35 am 4_noble_prayer_eng_img.PNG

The Four Noble Truths

(1) Suffering, as a noble truth

...
(2) The origin of suffering, as a noble truth

...
(3) Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth

...

(4) The way leading to cessation of suffering

...


i don't think that the so called "noble truths" apply.

I'd suggest

1. There may be (but not necessarily are) troubles in life that are unnecessary.
2. These troubles certainly have causes and conditions.
3. There is an end of all causes and conditions of troubles in life that are unnecessary.
4. There is a way of cognition which is the end of all causes and conditions of troubles in life that are unnecessary.

soogar571 wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:35 am
The Lord's Prayer

This seems to be just another religious nonsense. Religious nonsense is one of the many causes and conditions of troubles in life that are unnecessary.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
BrokenBones
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Re: The Four Noble Truths and The Lord's Prayer

Post by BrokenBones »

I think the 'Lord's prayer' is a wonderful teaching... for Christians. However it has little in common to the deep & sublime teachings of the Buddha beyond vague ethics & forgiveness. I do remember enjoying reciting the prayer as a kid.
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equilibrium
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Re: The Four Noble Truths and The Lord's Prayer

Post by equilibrium »

soogar571 wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:35 am
*(3) cessation of suffering, as a noble truth is the other side of the coin of forgiving us our debts.
If you’re pointing out the above then ….. Not even close, two completely different things:

1. Cessation of suffering is the escaping from the cycle of samsara (birth and death) and can only be achieved by breaking through “delusion” of the self l-am. ….. whereas on “forgiving” is merely act of forgiveness by another party.

2. “Delusion” can only be eliminated by oneself via mind as existence itself is an illusion created by oneself. ….. whereas “forgiving” depends on an unknown / fabricated party based on belief.

3. Furthermore, “cessation of suffering” is based on MORALITY due to the existence of (cause and effect) ….. whereas “forgiving” allows oneself to do whatever one wishes in this life and get away with it.

4. “Morality” is based on self-control of the mind to rise, to lightness, to Nibbana (peace) ….. whereas “forgiving” leads to further darkness, suffering and effects of the mind.

5. 4NT via mind knows ….. one has escaped samsara ….. whereas forgiving does not, leading to endless suffering without an escape. ….. trapped within an illusion one doesn’t even know!
pegembara
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Re: The Four Noble Truths and The Lord's Prayer

Post by pegembara »

You may find more traction with the Serenity Prayer.

God grant me the serenity

To accept the things I cannot change;-->seeing things as they are

Courage to change the things I can;

And wisdom to know the difference.

Living one day at a time;

Enjoying one moment at a time;

Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;

Taking, as He did, this sinful world

As it is, not as I would have it;-->suchness, not otherwise

Trusting that He will make things right

If I surrender to His Will;-->Letting Go(d)

So that I may be reasonably happy in this life

And supremely happy with Him

Forever and ever in the next.

Amen.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Eharp
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Re: The Four Noble Truths and The Lord's Prayer

Post by Eharp »

Personally, I don't put a lot of stock in the King James bible since reading Bart Ehrman's book "misquoting Jesus" where he makes the very convincing case that much of the king james bible was invented out of whole cloth by 13th century scribes. Plus the fact that it ignores the Gnostic gospels completely. All english translations of the original source documents are sketchy at best, usually interpreted to fulfill some political goals of the leaders of the church during the 1200's. Plus I am not convinced of any evidence that there was an historical jesus. But it makes a fun thought exercise, for whatever that is worth.
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