Vitttara and Vitakka are the Symbols of thought

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Pondera
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Vitttara and Vitakka are the Symbols of thought

Post by Pondera »

In my experience, thought and evaluation allow one to question the purity of his mind.

I think one would do well to abide in the first jhana for a long time.

- Pondera
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vitttara and Vitakka are the Symbols of thought

Post by Ceisiwr »

MN 117 is interesting as it contains associated words, so the meaning of vitakka & vicara in terms of Jhana wouldn’t be lost
And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The thinking, thought, intention, mental absorption, mental fixity, directing of mind, verbal formation in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path: this is right intention that is noble…a factor of the path.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Pondera
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Re: Vitttara and Vitakka are the Symbols of thought

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:29 pm MN 117 is interesting as it contains associated words, so the meaning of vitakka & vicara in terms of Jhana wouldn’t be lost
And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The thinking, thought, intention, mental absorption, mental fixity, directing of mind, verbal formation in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path: this is right intention that is noble…a factor of the path.
Nothing personal. Just my 2 € . The verbal kamma is addressed in right speech

Because verbiage expresses ideas/dhamma, it is foremost when analyzing the mind (or giving the dhamma to others). The “word” (so to speak) was in the beginning. Being able to internally unwrap one’s self with right thought is paramount to walking the path. This is irregardless of jhana or any dhyana.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vitttara and Vitakka are the Symbols of thought

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pondera wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:53 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:29 pm MN 117 is interesting as it contains associated words, so the meaning of vitakka & vicara in terms of Jhana wouldn’t be lost
And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The thinking, thought, intention, mental absorption, mental fixity, directing of mind, verbal formation in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path: this is right intention that is noble…a factor of the path.
Nothing personal. Just my 2 € . The verbal kamma is addressed in right speech

Because verbiage expresses ideas/dhamma, it is foremost when analyzing the mind (or giving the dhamma to others). The “word” (so to speak) was in the beginning. Being able to internally unwrap one’s self with right thought is paramount to walking the path. This is irregardless of jhana or any dhyana.
That would be speaking, rather than the intention behind it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Pondera
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Re: Vitttara and Vitakka are the Symbols of thought

Post by Pondera »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:56 pm
Pondera wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:53 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:29 pm MN 117 is interesting as it contains associated words, so the meaning of vitakka & vicara in terms of Jhana wouldn’t be lost

Nothing personal. Just my 2 € . The verbal kamma is addressed in right speech

Because verbiage expresses ideas/dhamma, it is foremost when analyzing the mind (or giving the dhamma to others). The “word” (so to speak) was in the beginning. Being able to internally unwrap one’s self with right thought is paramount to walking the path. This is irregardless of jhana or any dhyana.
That would be speaking, rather than the intention behind it.
To quote an old trope “I speak my mind”

Those who are afraid to in public are generally hiding something - usually an insecurity
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
Jack19990101
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Re: Vitttara and Vitakka are the Symbols of thought

Post by Jack19990101 »

Directing mind & Evaluation is work, effort.
But why Work/Effort is being stationed as Fruit/factor tho.

Directing mind & evaluating mind, is on going while hindrances persist, before Jhana.
It is not a sign of purity.

One of things unaccounted for, it is inner visions(&sounds). Inner vision is more qualified as a sign of purity, compare to directing & evaluating mind.
SarathW
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Re: Vitttara and Vitakka are the Symbols of thought

Post by SarathW »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:29 pm MN 117 is interesting as it contains associated words, so the meaning of vitakka & vicara in terms of Jhana wouldn’t be lost
And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The thinking, thought, intention, mental absorption, mental fixity, directing of mind, verbal formation in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path: this is right intention that is noble…a factor of the path.
:goodpost:
Is this Yonisomanasikara too?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Vitttara and Vitakka are the Symbols of thought

Post by SteRo »

Pondera wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:09 pm In my experience, thought and evaluation allow one to question the purity of his mind.

I think one would do well to abide in the first jhana for a long time.

- Pondera
In my experience there is no jhana. And my experience is perfect.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Vitttara and Vitakka are the Symbols of thought

Post by Ceisiwr »

SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:45 am
Pondera wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:09 pm In my experience, thought and evaluation allow one to question the purity of his mind.

I think one would do well to abide in the first jhana for a long time.

- Pondera
In my experience there is no jhana. And my experience is perfect.
Quite the claim.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Pondera
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Re: Vitttara and Vitakka are the Symbols of thought

Post by Pondera »

SteRo wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 4:45 am
Pondera wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:09 pm In my experience, thought and evaluation allow one to question the purity of his mind.

I think one would do well to abide in the first jhana for a long time.

- Pondera
In my experience there is no jhana. And my experience is perfect.
Quite the clam.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User13866
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Re: Vitttara and Vitakka are the Symbols of thought

Post by User13866 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:29 pm MN 117 is interesting as it contains associated words, so the meaning of vitakka & vicara in terms of Jhana wouldn’t be lost
And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The thinking, thought, intention, mental absorption, mental fixity, directing of mind, verbal formation in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path: this is right intention that is noble…a factor of the path.
The pali there is difficult to pin down exactly as is the case with 'saṅkappo' in general
A good thread here What the suttas teach us about the meaning of saṅkappa
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammāsaṅkappo ariyo anāsavo lokuttaro maggaṅgo?

Yo kho, bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anāsavacittassa ariyamaggasamaṅgino ariyamaggaṁ bhāvayato takko vitakko saṅkappo appanā byappanā cetaso abhiniropanā vacīsaṅkhāro - ayaṁ, bhikkhave, sammāsaṅkappo ariyo anāsavo lokuttaro maggaṅgo.
MN117
Sujato wrote:And what is right thought that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path? It’s the thinking—the placing of the mind, thought, applying, application, implanting of the mind, verbal processes—in one of noble mind and undefiled mind, who possesses the noble path and develops the noble path. This is right thought that is noble.
Bodhi wrote:“And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The thinking, thought, intention, mental absorption, mental fixity, directing of mind, verbal formation in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path: this is right intention that is noble…a factor of the path.
Thanissaro wrote:"And what is the right resolve that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The thinking, directed thinking, resolve, mental fixity, mental transfixion, focused awareness, & verbal fabrications in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right resolve that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path."
I've access to another decent sanskrit & pali to english translator, i don't want to name him but his stuff is on the sc. He doesn't translate to english so i'll translate it as it is easy to do

He pins it ~
But what, bhikkhus, is right decision which is noble, without contaminants, raised above worldly regards [concerns] and is a constituent of the path? The though, evaluation, purpose, targeting, focusing and the decided speech of one who has a noble mind without contaminants in mind, one who follows the noble path and practices in accordance with it.
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