Are there Eternalists here?

[bpallister]

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.97/en/bod ... ight=false


This seems to say that nothing is eternal

[Sam Vara]

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.97/en/bod ... ight=false


This seems to say that nothing is eternal

No khandhas, anyway.

[mikenz66]

In my rather non-expert observation, some of the possibly "eternalist" problems come from considering passages that mention mano or citta:

“This mind, mendicants, is radiant.
“Pabhassaramidaṁ, bhikkhave, cittaṁ.
https://suttacentral.net/an1.51-60/en/s ... ript=latin

A developed mind is workable.”
Cittaṁ, bhikkhave, bhāvitaṁ kammaniyaṁ hotī”ti.
https://suttacentral.net/an1.21-30/en/s ... ript=latin

Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
or
Mind precedes thoughts, mind is their chief, their quality is made by mind,
if with a base mind one speaks or acts, through that suffering follows him like a wheel follows the ox’s foot.
or
Intention shapes experiences;
Manopubbaṅgamā dhammā,
intention is first, they’re made by intention.
manoseṭṭhā manomayā;
If with corrupt intent
Manasā ce paduṭṭhena,
you speak or act,
bhāsati vā karoti vā;
suffering follows you,
Tato naṁ dukkhamanveti,
like a wheel, the ox’s foot.
cakkaṁva vahato padaṁ.
https://suttacentral.net/dhp1-20/en/suj ... ript=latin

If mano, citta, viññāṇa are taken as synonyms, and statements from the suttas, and some teachers, about mano and citta are taken to be referring to some "thing", then there can be some apparent contradiction. This is especially so if one also mixes in the commentarial use of the term citta to often mean "mind moments". That particular meaning doesn't seem to be how the above suttas are using the term. On the other hand, if mano and citta are taken to be speaking more generally about "how the mind is working", then some of the problem goes away.

The other "eternalist" issue is the apparent teaching of many Thai Forest Ajahns (Ajahns Mun, Bua, etc) of some sort of permcontradictoryanent "awareness" outside of the aggregates. Again, it may be possible to read this sympathetically, particularly since they usually don't seem to really define what they mean by "awareness".


Mike

[cappuccino]

This seems to say that nothing is eternal

that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and that will remain the same just like eternity itself

[bpallister]

is eternity itself eternal?

[cappuccino]

is eternity itself eternal?

You’re missing the point

[bpallister]

a lump of dung:

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.96/en/bod ... ight=false

[cappuccino]

…

Bhikkhu, there is not even this much individual existence that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and that will remain the same just like eternity itself.

[bpallister]

Will eternity change?

[cappuccino]

Will eternity change?

You’re missing the point

[bpallister]

Theory of eternity of life: This theory assumes that life had no beginning or end. It believes that life has ever been in existence and it will continue to be so ever. It further believe that there is no question of origin of life as it has no beginning or end. The theory is also known as steady state theory.


this kind of sounds like some of the Buddha's teachings to me

[cappuccino]

Theory of eternity of life: This theory assumes that life had no beginning or end.

Inconstancy


the state of not staying the same

[Bundokji]

The word "eternal" can mean that something has always been there and will continue to be there regardless of our observations of it. In its simplest form, and from an experiential point of view, you can observe an object upon moving into the range of its vicinity, of which you conclude that its been there before your arrival, then leave the vicinity so it becomes no longer there, and then return to find it still there, then conclude that it has an independent existence from your act of observation and/or moving into the range of its vicinity. This, seems to be the basis of eternalism. You can go into lengths to deny it if you want to.

[cappuccino]

You can go into lengths to deny it if you want to.

These days people are very slow to understand

[Ceisiwr]

People believe they will live forever because they either miss loved ones, because they fear death or they are egotistical. Never forget that dependent upon contact vedanā arises, which under the corrupting influence of the āsavas leads to views or living forever, or of annihilation or anything else in-between.