Are there Eternalists here?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
bpallister
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by bpallister »

Got it, thank you
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cappuccino
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by cappuccino »

bpallister wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:40 am I was talking just about Nirvana
being everlasting, it is not stressful


hence not boring
pegembara
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by pegembara »

Bundokji wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:35 am The word "eternal" can mean that something has always been there and will continue to be there regardless of our observations of it. In its simplest form, and from an experiential point of view, you can observe an object upon moving into the range of its vicinity, of which you conclude that its been there before your arrival, then leave the vicinity so it becomes no longer there, and then return to find it still there, then conclude that it has an independent existence from your act of observation and/or moving into the range of its vicinity. This, seems to be the basis of eternalism. You can go into lengths to deny it if you want to.
Just out of curiosity, are anicca, dukkha and anatta "eternal"?
"Monks, whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All processes are inconstant.

The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, & makes it plain:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by pegembara »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:38 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:37 am there never was anyone who suffered to begin with.
you do not suffer?

"Monks, the All is aflame. What All is aflame? The eye is aflame. Forms are aflame. Consciousness at the eye is aflame. Contact at the eye is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye, experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: With that, too, he grows disenchanted.
'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, everything that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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cappuccino
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by cappuccino »

pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:24 am Just out of curiosity, are anicca, dukkha and anatta "eternal"?
you are not eternally the same


you will be different
Bundokji
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by Bundokji »

pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:24 am Just out of curiosity, are anicca, dukkha and anatta "eternal"?
"Monks, whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All processes are inconstant.

The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, & makes it plain:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

They are characteristics of conditioned phenomena or existence. If existence is eternal, then they are eternal.If existence is not eternal, then they are not eternal.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
pegembara
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by pegembara »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:46 am
pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:24 am Just out of curiosity, are anicca, dukkha and anatta "eternal"?
you are not eternally the same
you will be different
And if you are not the same person you were, that would be consistent with the fact that all things are without/not-self(anatta) would it not?
No "thingness".
Firewood becomes ash, and it does not become firewood again. Yet, do not suppose that the ash is future and the firewood past. You should understand that firewood abides in the phenomenal expression of firewood, which fully includes past and future and is independent of past and future. Ash abides in the phenomenal expression of ash, which fully includes future and past. Just as firewood does not become firewood again after it is ash, you do not return to birth after death.

This being so, it is an established way in buddha-dharma to deny that birth turns into death. Accordingly, birth is understood as no-birth. It is an unshakable teaching in Buddha's discourse that death does not turn into birth. Accordingly, death is understood as no-death.

Birth is an expression complete this moment. Death is an expression complete this moment. They are like winter and spring. You do not call winter the beginning of spring, nor summer the end of spring.

Dogen
Last edited by pegembara on Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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cappuccino
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by cappuccino »

pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:51 am And if you are not the same person you were, that would be consistent with the fact that all things are … not-self … would it not?
body is not self and yet we take it for self
TRobinson465
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by TRobinson465 »

bpallister wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:34 pm is eternity itself eternal?
Yes eternity is eternal, and so is 2+2=4, that will also forever be eternal. and so is nibbana. Nowhere in that sutta does it say nothing is eternal. it clearly says form, feeling, perception, etc. are not eternal permanent or unchanging. Anything that is not the khandas does not necessarily fall into the category of impermanent.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
Ontheway
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by Ontheway »

cappuccino wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:39 pm
bpallister wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:38 pm
Bhikkhu, there is not even this much individual existence that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and that will remain the same just like eternity itself.

:quote:
Your English is bad. Read the whole sentence.

Are you even from English speaking country?

Fix your English reading skill.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Pondera
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by Pondera »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:16 am
cappuccino wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:39 pm
bpallister wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 11:38 pm
Bhikkhu, there is not even this much individual existence that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and that will remain the same just like eternity itself.

:quote:
Your English is bad. Read the whole sentence.

Are you even from English speaking country?

Fix your English reading skill.
“Are you even from an English speaking country?”

“Fix your English reading skills

FTFY - grammar Nazi alert - pot calling the kettle black alert - overall mean intentions alert - grow up, child.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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cappuccino
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by cappuccino »

Ontheway wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:16 am Your English is bad.
Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi
Joe.c
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by Joe.c »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:50 am Translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi
:? This is funny. I recall someone said highly about him before.

Now this person criticizes him with “Your English is bad.”

So, which statements are the right one? Lol.

Fyi, Look like, he did translate it on SN 22.96.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by Coëmgenu »

No one criticized Ven Bodhi's English. Ontheway criticized Cappucino's reading comprehension.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:59 pm Ontheway criticized Cappucino's reading comprehension.
criticize me if you think it is wise…
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