Are there Eternalists here?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I don't think that this "maybe-confused" contemporary Zen-Advaita fusionary teacher is the best example for that.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:24 pm I don't think that this … teacher is the best example for that.
No-self or Not-self?

Thanissaro Bhikkhu
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by Coëmgenu »

So, to be clear, I think that your insistence on denying that there is no self is a subtle form of Buddha-slandering. That aside, other words:

The Buddha didn't teach the same Dharma to everyone. He would withhold teachings if their disclosure would cause suffering and delusion, as evidenced by the cases of Vacchagotta and Anāthapiṇḍika, neither of whom were taught anattā until quite a while had lapsed.

So I used to really condemn that article by Ven Thanissaro, but now I merely think it trivially unwise. It does step in a few places towards slandering the Dharma still though.

There is an important precedence in "holding back" with anattā teachings, as set by the greatest of orators, the teacher of gods and men.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:30 pm So I used to really condemn that article by Ven Thanissaro, but now I merely think it trivially unwise.
of course, the truth cannot be valid
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by Coëmgenu »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:31 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:30 pm So I used to really condemn that article by Ven Thanissaro, but now I merely think it trivially unwise.
of course, the truth cannot be valid
If you believe the above, how will you ever know truth?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:33 pm
cappuccino wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:31 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:30 pm So I used to really condemn that article by Ven Thanissaro, but now I merely think it trivially unwise.
of course, the truth cannot be valid
If you believe the above, how will you ever know truth?
I mean you don't think it is valid
auto
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:24 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:24 pm Like Vacchagotta before you.

To be fair, I don't think that the Buddha, if he had to give instructions to the members of this forum, would teach anattā here to many. Anattā was clearly a more carefully guarded teaching in the past, unlike how it is casually bandied about and "popified" today. The Buddha was clearly very concerned about its correct interpretation, declining to teach Vacchagotta about it due to his confusion and rebuking Sati rather strongly for saying that he understood the Buddha's Dharma to be in violation of the principle.
I agree. Today a lot of people are exposed to teachings they aren’t ready for yet if even at all in this life. It creates all kinds of confusion, as evidenced by many posters here past and present. Anatta is hard, and easy to get wrong.
The 'there is no self to begin with' is way different from mistaking one's identity with something what isn't you. I haven't seen any evidence that you guys are able to see how they are different, it still amazes me how it is not possible to.
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cappuccino
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:30 pm There is an important precedence in "holding back" with anattā teachings …
the Blessed One wrote:I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back.
Maha-parinibbana Sutta
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by Coëmgenu »

This simply means that he has taught Venerable Ānanda everything that he knows of "the Dhamma."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:50 pm This simply means that he has taught Venerable Ānanda everything that he knows of "the Dhamma."
And me
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Nope. I disagree. The Buddha has not taught you all that he knows of the Dhamma.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:10 pm The Buddha has not taught you all that he knows of the Dhamma.
Simsapa Sutta
What do you think, monks: Which are more numerous, the few leaves in my hand or those overhead in the forest?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I don't see the relevance. You are not one of those monks that that Buddha spoke to, monks that he had personally had a hand in the training of.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:35 pm You are not one of those monks that Buddha spoke to
Buddha is my teacher

:shrug:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Are there Eternalists here?

Post by Coëmgenu »

All Buddhists consider "Buddha" to be their teacher. I'm not impressed. Maybe hordes of silent others are. Who knows?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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