Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by Coëmgenu »

User13866 wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:26 pmthere are many things which are not in vinaya but are inappropriate such as stepping on white cloth [omitting point about anarchism]
Who sets down vinayas? Sammāsambuddhas set down vinayas. Who are you? When are you? Today, if the ascetic Gautama were alive now, would he forbid stepping on white cloth? Is this innately bad, or is it bad with respects to the time when it happened? White linens were more valuable in antique ages. White linens today can be purchased at the dollar store.
User13866 wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:26 pmdomestic ways
Whose domestic ways? Yours or the Buddha's and/or the householders of his time? They lived in Iron Age India. You live in Modern Age Wherever.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by User13866 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:37 pm
User13866 wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:26 pmthere are many things which are not in vinaya but are inappropriate such as stepping on white cloth [omitting point about anarchism]
Who sets down vinayas? Sammāsambuddhas set down vinayas. Who are you?
User13866 wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:26 pmdomestic ways
Whose domestic ways? Yours or the Buddha's and/or the householders of his time? They lived in Iron Age India. You live in Modern Age Wherever.
I am a student, the Blessed One left me dhammavinaya to study for a teacher. Sure it's convenient for you to omit half of the argument so i will substantiate the other half.
Then the Buddha glanced at Venerable Ānanda. So Ānanda said to Prince Bodhi, “Fold up the cloth, Prince. The Buddha will not step upon white cloth. The Realized One has compassion for future generations.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn85/en/sujato ... ript=latin
Are you even considering yourself a Theravada Buddhist btw?
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by Coëmgenu »

User13866 wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:43 pmAre you even considering yourself a Theravada Buddhist btw?
Absolutely not. I'm a Chán Buddhist, a former postulate of the Tendai Priesthood, and a thorough Mahāyānika. I've a deep respect for the Theravādin tradition, but I'm not a Theravādin. Absolutely not. On terms of "Sure it's convenient for you to omit half of the argument," which half? I'm rather fluent in "Internet forum."

The rest of your identification is fluff, IMO. I could also claim to be a Theravādin so-and-so.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by Johann »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:08 pm Bhikkhus are not supposed to "f*** the state," nor are they supposed to condone it, suffice to say. Dog-walking is another matter.
Monks/punks walking them, they walk the monks/punks... a German proverb says "Wie da Herr, so's G'scher"

Image
(By the way, if not wrong, a convicted and fleeing state criminal who's part-taking in monk-walking)

Trades, gains for/in the world, and many fellows counts for satisfied bellies... they aren't just harmful and dangerous, but very harmfull and very dangerous, just look already destroyed Sri Lanka... those fools fight their own battles of opposing and use all what's a favor for common blind and mis-informed. Devadatta's host.

Not to speak of the organized Dhamma-stealing, and culture occupation, encouraging to kill humans, politics... no transgression not missed out by this people wearing robes.
Last edited by Johann on Mon Jul 11, 2022 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by User13866 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:51 pm
User13866 wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:43 pmAre you even considering yourself a Theravada Buddhist btw?
Absolutely not. I'm a Chán Buddhist, a former postulate of the Tendai Preisthood, and a thorough Mahāyānika. I've a deep respect for the Theravādin tradition, but I'm not a Theravādin. Absolutely not. On terms of "Sure it's convenient for you to omit half of the argument," which half? I'm rather fluent in "Internet forum."
I gave two examples of inappropriate things not found in Vinaya. You omitted one of them saying
[omitting point about anarchism]
That leaves only the point of stepping on white cloth because surely you aren't arguing that vinaya contains all inappropriate things.

Anyway i'll excuse myself from this back & forth.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by Coëmgenu »

User13866 wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:57 pmsurely you aren't arguing that vinaya contains all inappropriate things
The Sammāsambuddha taught the Vinaya. He knew the future. He knew every which dharma that crossed his mind.

Do you think that he included "all possible violations" in said recitation?

Like I said, I'm fluent in "Internet forum."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Post redacted.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by User13866 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:56 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:47 pm
I don't play this game you've inherited from Ceisiwr, just like you don't. We can discuss it here, because it pertains to suspicions of vinaya-violation that you've posted here. I've nothing against Ceisiwr, but I did think that this strategy you're trying to employ with me that he previously used with you was not the strongest.
It wasn’t a strategy in a game. I didn’t want that thread to be about if the cessation of perception & feeling is a consciousness state or not, because I saw little relevance to the OP there. I was more than happy to discuss it on another thread, but he never made one.
For the record i didn't mind his reaction but i think it's a misrepresentation to say that i wanted to discuss whether "perception & feeling is a consciousness state or not".

When i figured that Ceisiwr wanted to discuss a particular interpretation i thought that it should've been done in the classical section rather than the general theravada but i decided not to say anything.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by User13866 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:51 pm
User13866 wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:43 pmAre you even considering yourself a Theravada Buddhist btw?
Absolutely not. I'm a Chán Buddhist, a former postulate of the Tendai Priesthood, and a thorough Mahāyānika. I've a deep respect for the Theravādin tradition, but I'm not a Theravādin. Absolutely not. On terms of "Sure it's convenient for you to omit half of the argument," which half? I'm rather fluent in "Internet forum."

The rest of your identification is fluff, IMO. I could also claim to be a Theravādin so-and-so.
I asked because your argumentation led me to believe that you weren't a theravada fundamentalist because theravadins generally hold that the dhamma is timeless. I also recalled that you may have disclosed it before but i wasn't sure.

I am curious about what Chan "Pure Rules" look like for comparison, that to know where you are coming from in this thread.

Couldn't find it online.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by Coëmgenu »

User13866 wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:52 pmI am curious about what Chan "Pure Rules" look like for comparison, that to know where you are coming from in this thread.
Where I personally come from with regards to "the rules" is off-topic. Describing them as "Pure Rules" is already an issue IMO. This isn't the Torah. They are rules for purity, but not "pure rules."

We're discussing Theravādin vinaya, but for the sake of your inquiry, Chán monastics follow the Dharmaguptakavinaya. Tendai priests follow bodhisattvaśīla as outlined in the Vairocanabhāṣitacittabhūmisūtra (Division 1 of the Brahmājāla vaipulya) and esoteric precepts from the Vairocanābhisaṃbodhisūtra and the Sarvatathāgatatattvasaṃgraha. Either way, walking a dog is not a transgression of any of those precepts, and that is quite a wide net of precepts.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by User13866 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:27 pm ...
Thank you for the information.

Have a good one
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by Coëmgenu »

User13866 wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:33 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:27 pm ...
Thank you for the information.

Have a good one
I had one. It was OK. Could have been better, could have been worse. Now I'm headed home.

So with regards to the above, how many vinaya transgressions do you think there are that the Buddha didn't outline?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by Pondera »

SDC wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:14 pm Listening to you people moan about the behavior of monastics is amusing to me. So cutting edge. “I saw it on the internet so *I have to* talk about it”. My goodness, even if you are correct - and you may well be - what is most prominent in the subtext of these opinions is that you cannot handle the presence of a displeasing external condition without running to your keyboard. If it is a failure, that is their cross to bear, but complaining about it like this…now it becomes yours as well.

If you want people to consider an issue critically, it requires tact and finesse. And if y’all really cared about the Sangha, you’d come at this issue from a completely different angle. “Bold” talk like this is nothing but grandstanding, and only serves to uphold ambiguity between what is and what is not beneficial.

Sadly, I’m partaking in a degree of grandstanding just to make this point, but hopefully it will give people a reason to consider what is and is not worth saying about the monastic community. For years people (myself included at times) have been boldly ranting about the behavior of monastics, but if frequency of complaints had any bearing on monastic culture, they’d all have taken that advice by now and things would have changed. That is far from the case. So, I think we can safely say that these types of discussions do nothing to bring our preferences to fruition.

Just my 2 cents.
Good post. I’m very tempted to treat the OP’s question with utter disdain and sarcasm. The kamma result of WALKING A DOG is trivial. It is neither black kamma nor white kamma nor grey kamma. It is like pissing in the forest. Are you not aware, OP, that when monks need to piss they whip their dicks out, sit in a squatting position, and piss all over the forest ground? Like, really? You think there’s something wrong with WALKING A DOG? You do realize how mundane and trivial a thing it is to take a dog for a walk or give him a morsel of food.

I am at a loss for words. I really want to make you look like an ass for even asking the question. And I want to do so in a variety of ways. But I won’t. Moderator requested this thread remain civil.

I will say a few things. Beyond a doubt you are young. And inexperienced. I like to put my self in your own place when thinking about this. Who would I have to be to be so self righteous and addicted to ideals that I would imagine a monk is transgressing the begger’s code in that he walks a dog? I would have to be young and inexperienced in life.

If you HURT a dog, that is dark kamma. If you kill an animal and eat it that is dark kamma. If you rape an animal that is dark kamma. If you steal another persons animal, that is dark kamma. If you sell an animal into slavery that is dark kamma. If you behave like an animal that is dark kamma. Now, keep in mind that elucidating all of the kamma results of all the possible behaviours of human kind will, according to the Buddha, drive one to vexation.

But the above are fairly safe bets. And keep in mind also that kamma is dark and light for different people. For some people a trivial transgression of morality is very dark kamma. For others that same trivial transgression means nothing.

Walking a dog is so trivial a thing that I know exactly what kind of person you are just from the fact that you posed the question.

[Irrelevant ad hominem content removed - Retro.]

The Bhikkhu’s conscience will decide for him whether walking the dog and keeping company with dogs is a transgression or not. That is not for you to decide or pass judgment on. Like a good Christian boy you should listen to Jesus and “take the log out of your own eye before you point out the speck in another’s”.

Just blown away by this thread. We’re talking about affection for animals. Who CARES!!! :computerproblem:
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by User13866 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 12:17 am
User13866 wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:33 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:27 pm ...
Thank you for the information.

Have a good one
I had one. It was OK. Could have been better, could have been worse. Now I'm headed home.

So with regards to the above, how many vinaya transgressions do you think there are that the Buddha didn't outline?
I've no idea mate

Buddha was praised for this
He abstains from accepting uncooked grain, raw meat, women and girls, male and female slaves, goats and sheep, fowl and swine, elephants, cattle, horses and mares. He abstains from accepting fields and lands. He abstains from running messages and errands.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .bodh.html
These aren't in the patimokkha afaik

It doesn't include cats & dogs, bats & mice, snakes & monkeys, tigers & lions and many other things...

I appreciate dogs a lot and can train a service dog but i don't keep dogs and i wouldn't keep a dog if i was ordained. However i wouldn't make a fuss out of it if other monks decided to keep a dog, id train it too.
Last edited by User13866 on Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by User13866 »

User13866 wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 8:13 am However i wouldn't make a fuss out of it if other monks decided to keep a dog, id train it too.
In hindsight i might or might not train it, it depends on many factors and i would probably say something. Seniority matters in a monastic setting and i would weigh the pros & cons of criticizing people i live with over this.
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