Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Pondera
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

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Sam Vara wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:13 pm
Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:00 pm
The dog is not tucking it’s tail in the first picture. And there are countless reasons why his tail might be tucked in the second picture. A loud noise, perhaps? He is not NECESSARILY miserable and that is a HUGE assumption on your part.
The dog is a greyhound, or greyhound cross. They tuck their tails in most of the time. Google the breed and see what pics come up. Looks like a happy dog to me!
Thank you! I did not know that! Nor did [name redacted by admin] apparently. You must forgive us. After all, we are just amateur dog owners :jumping:
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by User13866 »

Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:31 pm You could ask him personally, but I suspect someone else other than the dog has his tail between his legs. You bash the Bhikkhu behind his back, while having every opportunity to confront him directly on suttacentral.
You have no idea of what you are talking about.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by Sam Vara »

Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:35 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:13 pm
Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:00 pm
The dog is not tucking it’s tail in the first picture. And there are countless reasons why his tail might be tucked in the second picture. A loud noise, perhaps? He is not NECESSARILY miserable and that is a HUGE assumption on your part.
The dog is a greyhound, or greyhound cross. They tuck their tails in most of the time. Google the breed and see what pics come up. Looks like a happy dog to me!
Thank you! I did not know that! Nor did [name redacted by admin] apparently. You must forgive us. After all, we are just amateur dog owners :jumping:
Well, I've never been paid for it, so I'm not a professional!

Also worth noting is that the greyhound is probably on a lead because they are rarely safe around cats and small mammals including other dogs. Their prey instinct is incredibly strong, as they have been bred for it and frequently trained for it. That one looks to be a retired racing dog - look at its grey muzzle. Once their sprinting days are over (normally at about 4 years old) they don't actually need long country walks. A couple of short walks in the city would be fine.

Like you, I see no evidence of ill-treatment in the photos. In fact, I'd be happy to hand over my dogs to the Ajahns, providing they didn't try to teach them the Dhamma! ;)
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

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Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:35 pm Nor did [name redacted by admin] apparently. You must forgive us. After all, we are just amateur dog owners :jumping:
I didn't know, i've never worked with this breed.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

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User13866 wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:39 pm
Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:31 pm You could ask him personally, but I suspect someone else other than the dog has his tail between his legs. You bash the Bhikkhu behind his back, while having every opportunity to confront him directly on suttacentral.
You have no idea of what you are talking about.
You could literally go to suttacentral sign up for an account and ask the Bhikkhu to his face what he does and does not do when he walks that dog. I know EXACTLY what I am talking about. You prefer to condemn him under all types of assumption on a forum he doesn’t visit. And that, my friend, is cowardly. None of what you have to say about that Bhikkhu means anything, given that you are intentionally avoiding the chance to question the Bhikkhu in an honest manner at suttacentral. Man up or shut up.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

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User13866 wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:44 pm
Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:35 pm Nor did [name redacted by admin] apparently. You must forgive us. After all, we are just amateur dog owners :jumping:
I didn't know, i've never worked with this breed.
Well now you do, so retract your accusations about the Bhikkhu making the dog miserable.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by User13866 »

Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:50 pm
User13866 wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:44 pm
Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:35 pm Nor did [name redacted by admin] apparently. You must forgive us. After all, we are just amateur dog owners :jumping:
I didn't know, i've never worked with this breed.
Well now you do, so retract your accusations about the Bhikkhu making the dog miserable.
It became retracted when i said that i didn't know.

Also i didn't say Bhikkhu made him miserable, that is your conjecture

I said the dog looked miserable
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

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User13866 wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:52 pm
Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:50 pm
User13866 wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:44 pm
I didn't know, i've never worked with this breed.
Well now you do, so retract your accusations about the Bhikkhu making the dog miserable.
It became retracted when i said that i didn't know.

Also i didn't say Bhikkhu made him miserable, that is your conjecture

I said the dog looked miserable
It’s not. It’s perfectly happy, if Sam Vara has anything to say about it. I’m done. This thread is thoroughly trivial and I have better things to do with my time - like sleep 😴
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

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Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:56 pm It’s not. It’s perfectly happy, if Sam Vara has anything to say about it. I’m done. This thread is thoroughly trivial and I have better things to do with my time - like sleep 😴
So we all learned something here

#1 It's inappropriate for a monk to pet and walk a dog
#2 Greyhounds keep their tails down a lot
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

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SamanaJohann_ wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 11:48 am
...“Now at that time, many *dogs and cats*, pressing up to a certain bhikkhu, led him about *touch-by touch*. He felt conscience-stricken…. ‘Did you consent, bhikkhu?’ (the *Buddha-nimitta*) asked.

‘No, venerable sir, I did not.’

‘Then there was no offense, bhikkhu, as you did not consent.’”...
Where is this from good samana?
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

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User13866 wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:01 pm
Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 1:56 pm It’s not. It’s perfectly happy, if Sam Vara has anything to say about it. I’m done. This thread is thoroughly trivial and I have better things to do with my time - like sleep 😴
So we all learned something here

#1 It's inappropriate for a monk to pet and walk a dog
#2 Greyhounds keep their tails down a lot
Like I said, there is only one person who knows if it is appropriate or inappropriate to pet and walk a dog - the Bhikkhu who you have every opportunity to confront.

Usually, when we burn a man alive we try to tie him to the stake first (better if he doesn’t run around, you know …) :clap:

Out of curiosity, why DON’T you ask the Bhikkhu about his actions? Is it inappropriate for a layman to accuse a monk of wrong doing?
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by User13866 »

Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:11 pm Like I said, there is only one person who knows if it is appropriate or inappropriate to pet and walk a dog - the Bhikkhu
Wow... So only Akaliko knows whether it is okay...
who you have every opportunity to confront.
Again you don't know anything about this
Out of curiosity, why DON’T you ask the Bhikkhu about his actions?
Curiosity killed the cat... It's none of your business.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by dadati »

Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 12:49 pm
User13866 wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:45 am
Pondera wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:21 am I need a link to the picture.
It was a hypothetical question. I hope no such pictures exist.

There are many trivial things that are a no-no for a monk like causing something to float on water for fun
pācittiya 53
"udake hasadhamme pācittiyaṃ."

Not to play in the water. If within a water body (river, stream, lake, pond, etc.) where the water level reaches at least the height of the eyes, a bhikkhu dives, floats, swims, amuses himself or becomes enthusiastic for this water in any manner, he commits a pācittiya.

If he plays by means of a boat, or by throwing or causing to float anything on cooking water, or within any container with water, he commits a dukkaṭa. Naturally, a sick bhikkhu entering the water for health reasons does not commit any fault. The same thing applies to a bhikkhu who swims only for the purpose of crossing a river that obstructs his way.
https://en.dhammadana.org/sangha/vinaya ... m#ch----53
On another occasion, Kassapa asked the Buddha: "What is the reason that formerly there were fewer rules, but more monks were established in the knowledge of Arahatship, while now there are more rules, but fewer monks are established in the knowledge of Arahatship?" The Buddha replied:

"So it happens, Kassapa, when beings deteriorate and the true Dhamma vanishes: then there are more rules and fewer Arahats. There will be, however, no vanishing of the true Dhamma until a sham Dhamma arises in the world. But when a sham Dhamma arises in the world, there will be more rules and fewer Arahats.
"But, Kassapa, it is not a cataclysm of the four elements — earth, water, fire and air — that makes the Dhamma disappear. Nor is the reason for its disappearance similar to the overloading of a ship that causes it to sink. It is rather the presence of five detrimental attitudes that causes the obscuration and disappearance of the Dhamma.

"These are the five: it is the lack of respect and regard for the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, the training, and for meditative concentration, on the part of monks and nuns, and male and female lay devotees. But so long as there is respect and regard for those five things, the Dhamma will remain free of obscuration and will not disappear."

— S.16:13
No mention of cats or dogs :spy:
You nailed it Pondera:
"The true Dhamma does not disappear all at once in the way a ship sinks. There are, Kassapa, five detrimental things that lead to the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma. What are the five? Here the bhikkhus, the bhikkhunis, the male lay followers, and the female lay followers dwell without reverence and deference towards the Teacher; they dwell without reverence and deference towards the Dharma; they dwell without reverence and deference towards the Sangha; they dwell without reverence and deference towards the training; they dwell without reverence and deference towards concentration. These, Kassapa, are the five detrimental things that lead to the decay and disappearance of the true Dhamma."

It is disrespectful towards the Teacher, towards the Dhamma and towards the Sangha when you spend your time having fun with dogs as a monk. As a monk who goes forth out of faith from the home life into homelessness, living on almsfood, to live and fulfill the holy life. And it is also disrespectful towards the lay followers who out of faith provides the requisites for you.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

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dadati wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:43 pm It is disrespectful towards the Teacher, towards the Dhamma and towards the Sangha when you spend your time having fun with dogs as a monk. As a monk who goes forth out of faith from the home life into homelessness, living on almsfood, to live and fulfill the holy life. And it is also disrespectful towards the lay followers who out of faith provides the requisites for you.
Like I said to your cohort earlier in the thread, you may be right. However, if you believe the monk in question is inflicting damage with his action than you have to be willing to assume the same risk with how you carry out your criticism - especially if it is not justified nor comprehensive. You shouldn’t take for granted an exemption based on intention alone because - whether you like it or not - you’ve cast a pretty large net. Not exactly the mark of any sense of shame or fear of wrongdoing, which are necessary aspects of practice. Yes, absolutely, the monks in question would be assuming the same risk, but two wrongs don’t make a right.

To be frank, I have no issue with this being discussed (as has been insinuated), but there is a serious lack of perspective and care with how it is being addressed. And I’m more concerned for the posters in this thread than I am of the feelings of the monastics who may be not be considering the image portrayed when things look too casual. Yeah, perhaps there are instances where joy should be tempered, but to cut so deep really doesn’t seem worth it.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by User13866 »

SDC wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 3:24 pm
dadati wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 2:43 pm It is disrespectful towards the Teacher, towards the Dhamma and towards the Sangha when you spend your time having fun with dogs as a monk. As a monk who goes forth out of faith from the home life into homelessness, living on almsfood, to live and fulfill the holy life. And it is also disrespectful towards the lay followers who out of faith provides the requisites for you.
Like I said to your cohort earlier in the thread, you may be right. However, if you believe the monk in question is inflicting damage with his action than you have to be willing to assume the same risk with how you carry out your criticism - especially if it is not justified nor comprehensive. You shouldn’t take for granted an exemption based on intention alone because - whether you like it or not - you’ve cast a pretty large net. Not exactly the mark of any sense of shame or fear of wrongdoing, which are necessary aspects of practice. Yes, absolutely, the monks in question would be assuming the same risk, but two wrongs don’t make a right.

To be frank, I have no issue with this being discussed (as has been insinuated), but there is a serious lack of perspective and care with how it is being addressed. And I’m more concerned for the posters in this thread than I am of the feelings of the monastics who may be not be considering the image portrayed when things look too casual. Yeah, perhaps there are instances where joy should be tempered, but to cut so deep really doesn’t seem worth it.
It's not that he may be right or may not be right. He is either right or he isn't.

If you can't see whether he is right or not, that is your problem and we shouldn't be restraining ourselves due to your inability to distinguish right from wrong.

If we are wrong then that is our problem.

It should be obvious that we are confident enough to criticize this whilst you sit on the fence.

So i suggest you keep sitting there and mind your own business .
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