Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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dadati
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Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by dadati »

They are monks connected to Sujato (including himself) and his suttacentral site. In the pictures, Sujato, Akāliko and Ayya Yesh (maybe she is a nun).

"Truly this is a dream job… There is STILL a distinct lack of cats at Lokanta Vihara!!!

But meanwhile I borrow friends pets for little walks when I can - here’s Tilly:"

Bhante Akāliko
monk posing with dog_Bhante Akāliko.jpeg
sujato_akaliko_ayya_yesh.jpeg
sujato.jpeg
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by DNS »

What Vinaya rules are being broken (if any)?

I think it's great for people to have companion pets at least for some period of their life. It gives you that one more connection to another species (we are animals too) and to animals in general. One could have 5, 10, or even 15 pets over the course of their lifetime and they can tell you there are no two alike. They are each unique in their mannerisms, personality, etc.

And they cost very little, pet food is inexpensive, typically being rendered meat (inner organs ground up, other by-products), no animal killed specifically for their food.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by Bodhidhamma »

The Buddha rejected the idea of an all-powerful god,
Not the idea of an all-loving dog.
Rakkhantu sabba-devatā.
May all the devas protect you.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Many Buddhist monasteries have cats and animals. People sometimes take their unwanted pets and leave them at the monastery because they know the monks will treat them kindly.
This can actually become a problem, because the temple can become full of cats, noisy dogs, and very noisy chickens and roosters!

Venerable Akaliko doesn't have any pets at the vihara, he just took that dog for a walk a few times.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by mikenz66 »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:48 pm Many Buddhist monasteries have cats and animals. People sometimes take their unwanted pets and leave them at the monastery because they know the monks will treat them kindly.
There are plenty of animals at monasteries in Thailand. Bhikkhu Dhammanando was looking after a couple of cats when I visited him a few years ago, one of which needed quite a lot of care at the time. Monastic life isn't hermit life. It's designed to involve interaction with other monastics, lay people, etc.

:heart:
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dadati
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by dadati »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:16 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:48 pm Many Buddhist monasteries have cats and animals. People sometimes take their unwanted pets and leave them at the monastery because they know the monks will treat them kindly.
Monastic life isn't hermit life. It's designed to involve interaction with other monastics, lay people, etc.

:heart:
Mike
Is it? Isn't it about reaching the goal and helping others to do so by teaching them? And not about taking care of pets and walking them?

As far as I am aware the Buddha and his disciples praised seclusion (from society as well) and not involvement in such matters, e.g. from Kassapa:
"he is secluded himself and speaks in praise of seclusion; he is aloof from society himself and speaks in praise of aloofness from society;"
JamesTheGiant wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:48 pm Many Buddhist monasteries have cats and animals. People sometimes take their unwanted pets and leave them at the monastery because they know the monks will treat them kindly.
This can actually become a problem, because the temple can become full of cats, noisy dogs, and very noisy chickens and roosters!

Venerable Akaliko doesn't have any pets at the vihara, he just took that dog for a walk a few times.
I am not really interested in whether it is a common practice or not.

I've just learned that a monk is strictly forbidden to accept and handle money. But still, only a few percent of the monks follow this rule. It is the 10. precept.

" Refrain from accepting money (literally gold and silver, but explained as anything that is used for commerce or trade)."

What I am really interested in, not the custom today.

We should not forget that we are talking about monks and not about lay people. So who is a monk?
"Bhikkhus, here some clansman goes forth out of faith from the home life into homelessness, considering: 'I am a victim of birth, ageing, and death, of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair; I am a victim of suffering, a prey to suffering. Surely an ending of this whole mass of suffering can be known.' "

So in this context, who is really a bhikkhu, is it ok to spend your time on petting and taking care and waking dogs, cats etc...
Do we have any reference from the vinaya or other part of the suttas which  support such livelihood for a monk, for someone who has choosen the homlessness out of faith, for one who lives on almsfood?

On the other hand, some seek monkhood for not right livelihood, as Moggalana said:
"So too friend, there are persons who are faithless and have gone forth from the home life into homelessness not out of faith, but seeking a livelihood..."
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by mikenz66 »

dadati wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:47 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:16 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:48 pm Many Buddhist monasteries have cats and animals. People sometimes take their unwanted pets and leave them at the monastery because they know the monks will treat them kindly.
Monastic life isn't hermit life. It's designed to involve interaction with other monastics, lay people, etc.

:heart:
Mike
Is it? Isn't it about reaching the goal and helping others to do so by teaching them? And not about taking care of pets and walking them?
Well, as I said: "Monastic life isn't hermit life. It's designed to involve interaction with other monastics, lay people, etc."
Perhaps I should have added the obvious: "The Path includes right speech, right action, right livelihood".

OK, walking pets might be a bit frivolous, as might be sweeping leaves, and various other things that monastics do...

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Mike
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

dadati wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:01 pm They are monks connected to Sujato (including himself) and his suttacentral site. In the pictures, Sujato, Akāliko and Ayya Yesh (maybe she is a nun).
Go over to Suttacental and ask there, they are all on that forum so you may get an in-person response.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by BrokenBones »

mikenz66 wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:02 am
dadati wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:47 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:16 pm Monastic life isn't hermit life. It's designed to involve interaction with other monastics, lay people, etc.

:heart:
Mike
Is it? Isn't it about reaching the goal and helping others to do so by teaching them? And not about taking care of pets and walking them?
Well, as I said: "Monastic life isn't hermit life. It's designed to involve interaction with other monastics, lay people, etc."
Perhaps I should have added the obvious: "The Path includes right speech, right action, right livelihood".

OK, walking pets might be a bit frivolous, as might be sweeping leaves, and various other things that monastics do...

:heart:
Mike
I've no 🦴 in this argument but there is a world of difference between dog walking and maintaining the monastery & surrounds. It probably is no great offence if it is one at all... but to paraphrase the Buddha... it's the look of the thing.
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by Joe.c »

A true monk will let go all attachment to this world and other world.

The problem is what the current monk status is? Are they still attach to this world or not? That needs to be answer by each individually.

Unfortunately, some might see it as attachment as the OP implied.

If they are open minded, upon being notify or consult, the monk will avoid doing such thing and keep seclusion strictly.

But not all monks at that level yet. 😅

Some monks might just ignore you or angry at you, once you notify them. So please proceed carefully. :)
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by allium »

dadati wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:47 pm So in this context, who is really a bhikkhu, is it ok to spend your time on petting and taking care and waking dogs, cats etc...
Do we have any reference from the vinaya or other part of the suttas which  support such livelihood for a monk, for someone who has choosen the homlessness out of faith, for one who lives on almsfood?
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
dadati wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 10:47 pm Isn't it about reaching the goal and helping others to do so by teaching them? And not about taking care of pets and walking them?
I think the real answer depends more upon the mind-states underpinning the action, rather than the outward appearance of the action.

If this is a way to cultivate kindness, generosity etc. while maintaining a degree of fitness then it is wholesome and good. On the other hand, it would be a problem if such endeavours were a distraction, or worse, if the person had given up on the Buddhist path and was just (ab)using monastic life for the purposes of receiving requisites and false valour.

Only the bhikkhu in question can know which situation is the case, so if you must know, direct your questions to the monastics in question. Do be aware though that some feel entitled to remain unchallenged by the laity, so don't be surprised if your questions are not well received.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by User13866 »

Him who walks a dog i call 'a dog-walker', not a monk. Him who houses abandoned animals i call 'one who operates an animal rescue'
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
User13866 wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:07 am Him who walks a dog i call 'a dog-walker', not a monk. Him who houses abandoned animals i call 'one who operates an animal rescue'
So to use Mike's analogy above, is a monk who sweeps leaves a "broom operator"?

:shrug:

I think your labelling serves no constructive purpose.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Is it right for a monk, who lives on alms food, to spend his time petting dogs and posing with dogs on leash?

Post by User13866 »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:11 am Greetings,
User13866 wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 11:07 am Him who walks a dog i call 'a dog-walker', not a monk. Him who houses abandoned animals i call 'one who operates an animal rescue'
So to use Mike's analogy above, is a monk who sweeps leaves a "broom operator"?

:shrug:

I think your labelling serves no constructive purpose.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Actually there is a text where the Buddha did this exact same thing calling a monk "a janitor" for being devoted to cleaning.

It's probably in the Dhp commentary.

Two monks ordained, one spent his time practicing whereas the other was cleaning a lot & criticizing the meditator.

I think appropriate labeling is very important.
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