Searching for a passage in the nikayas that I think exists about mixing Dhamma and lay goals

[nirodh27]

Hi everyone, hope everything is going well for you.

I was speaking with a friend two weeks ago and I cited a passage from the Nikayas in which the Buddha speaks of practicing "in the middle" in the sense of practicing the Dhamma and in the meantime pursue sensual pleasures and success. I think he is speaking to a lay follower.

The Buddha responds that by doing so, one cannot conquer the ultimate goals of the holy life and also it cannot conquer the goals of laylife in work, success etc.

But actually... I cannot find the passage! Can the forum help me to find it, if it ever exists. I'm pretty sure that exists in some form.

Thank you very much.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

I suspect you're misremembering a Sutta on this occasion. Why? Because if a Sutta did exist that said what you claim, it would be widely quoted on Buddhist forums as a contribution to frequent discussions on the lay/ordained dichotomy you detail in your post. But, I'm happy to be proven wrong...



Metta,
Paul.

[nirodh27]

Greetings,

I suspect you're misremembering a Sutta on this occasion. Why? Because if a Sutta did exist that said what you claim, it would be widely quoted on Buddhist forums as a contribution to frequent discussions on the lay/ordained dichotomy you detail in your post. But, I'm happy to be proven wrong...



Metta,
Paul.

Totally a possibility. Btw the sutta speaks (I think ) about ultimate goals, and I don't think that by reading the suttas one can think that can get arahantship as a layperson that actively works for success, career, childrens, work. I think that the question is already settled in this regard, for me second-path is the maximum you can get as a layperson that is active in pursuing and mantaining sensual pleasures.

It is more interesting in the direction of sensuality, since practicing both ends can impede the reaching of the ultimate goals of laylife as well if you're serious about renunciation. It reminds me the passage of the Gospel: "“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon". Btw any argument would be built on sand if the passage is not there in some form

[Johann]

The dhammapada, under Fools, last verses, point out such, good householder. But the Tipitaka is full of that, rarely one Sutta not pointing out that.

Verse 75

dhp.v.75
sut.kn.dhp.075 | att

One is the path to worldly gain, another the path leading to the Untroubled. Fully understanding this, the bhikkhu, the disciple of the Buddha, should not take delight in worldly honour. He should cultivate seclusion [from sensuous pleasures and spiritually unwholesome factors] instead.

Aññā hi lābhūpanisā aññā nibbānagāminī
Evametaṁ abhiññāya bhikkhu buddhassa sāvako
Sakkāraṁ nābhinandeyya vivekamanubrūhaye

If the Sublime Buddha was aware that one is strongly attached to the string, he would not have taught higher Dhamma and often spoke harsh with monks who taught people something total out of their ranch. Only after one is able to rejoice with heavenly existances he would have continued in regard of backwards, following with renouncing. Pleased there, one is prepeared to listen to the Dhamma of the Arahats. At improper time, nothing but cause of confusion and development of micchādiṭṭhi.

[SDC]

Leaving aside Master Gotama, the monks, the nuns, and the celibate laymen, is there even a single layman disciple of Master Gotama—white-clothed, enjoying sensual pleasures, following instructions, and responding to advice—who has gone beyond doubt, got rid of indecision, and lives self-assured and independent of others regarding the Teacher’s instruction?”

“There are not just one hundred such laymen enjoying sensual pleasures who are my disciples, Vaccha, or two or three or four or five hundred, but many more than that.”

Although, I think it would be problematic to call this a mix. The remaining sensuality is both a taint and a hindrance, so to choose that direction would be at the expense of further development of renunciation. Keeping in mind AN 10.53, it seems plausible that a noble disciple could oscillate between “standstill” and further development of wholesome qualities, but it does not appear as though a true mixture is advisable or even possible.

[nirodh27]

Thank you, not "the passage", but an important one about the topic.

Leaving aside Master Gotama, the monks, the nuns, and the celibate laymen, is there even a single layman disciple of Master Gotama—white-clothed, enjoying sensual pleasures, following instructions, and responding to advice—who has gone beyond doubt, got rid of indecision, and lives self-assured and independent of others regarding the Teacher’s instruction?”

“There are not just one hundred such laymen enjoying sensual pleasures who are my disciples, Vaccha, or two or three or four or five hundred, but many more than that.”

Although, I think it would be problematic to call this a mix. The remaining sensuality is both a taint and a hindrance, so to choose that direction would be at the expense of further development of renunciation. Keeping in mind AN 10.53, it seems plausible that a noble disciple could oscillate between “standstill” and further development of wholesome qualities, but it does not appear as though a true mixture is advisable or even possible.

This is not the passage that I was searching for, but it is a good try. I'm 100% on board that lay followers can be disciples of the Buddha and go beyond doubt, which I think is shared by all that is stream-entry. This is where one knows 100% that renunciation is the best path and existence is Dukkha and other things as well and so many bad practices of the mind (like regrets of the past for example, an impossibility for a stream entrant that have understood the four noble truths and it is not extremely mentally fatigued so that sati is slow in arising) are abandoned never to come back again.

But for ultimate ends, if one starts to develop jhanas, his motivation to work, to make a working family, etc will be severily compromised, the allure of a pleasure that is endless and requires nothing, no effort whatsoever and it is superior would be too strong. It's like having a big delicious cake in the fridge and not eating it. If you don't eat it and you distract yourself with something else, you can still resist. But if you start to eat little amounts of cake everyday, you will surely want more and you will lose interest in distractions. Jhanas will destroy your possibility to arrive to the ultimate ends of laylife by removing the energy that is needed to get there and mantain them and sensual pleasure ofc will destroy your ability to do jhanas and progress.

[Johann]

Maybe this in conversation with a householder, Nyom? Potaliya Sutta: To Potaliya

[nirodh27]

Maybe this in conversation with a householder, Nyom? Potaliya Sutta: To Potaliya

No, but thanks for trying and for the interesting sutta btw

Seems that I will do one last research and give up my convinction/impression

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

one last research...

Now, consider the pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means, and who makes themselves happy and pleased, and shares it and makes merit. And they enjoy that wealth untied, uninfatuated, unattached, seeing the drawbacks, and understanding the escape. They may be praised on four grounds. They seek for wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means. This is the first ground for praise. They make themselves happy and pleased. This is the second ground for praise. They share it and make merit. This is the third ground for praise. They enjoy that wealth untied, uninfatuated, unattached, seeing the drawbacks, and understanding the escape. This is the fourth ground for praise. This pleasure seeker may be praised on these four grounds.

These are the ten pleasure seekers found in the world. The pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means, who makes themselves happy and pleased, and shares it and makes merit, and who uses that wealth untied, uninfatuated, unattached, seeing the drawbacks, and understanding the escape is the foremost, best, chief, highest, and finest of the ten. From a cow comes milk, from milk comes curds, from curds come butter, from butter comes ghee, and from ghee comes cream of ghee. And the cream of ghee is said to be the best of these.

In the same way, the pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means, who makes themselves happy and pleased, and shares it and makes merit, and who uses that wealth untied, uninfatuated, unattached, seeing the drawbacks, and understanding the escape is the foremost, best, chief, highest, and finest of the ten.”

AN 10.91

Metta,
Paul.

[Ceisiwr]

Hi everyone, hope everything is going well for you.

I was speaking with a friend two weeks ago and I cited a passage from the Nikayas in which the Buddha speaks of practicing "in the middle" in the sense of practicing the Dhamma and in the meantime pursue sensual pleasures and success. I think he is speaking to a lay follower.

The Buddha responds that by doing so, one cannot conquer the ultimate goals of the holy life and also it cannot conquer the goals of laylife in work, success etc.

But actually... I cannot find the passage! Can the forum help me to find it, if it ever exists. I'm pretty sure that exists in some form.

Thank you very much.

I think I know which one you mean. It goes they those who refrain from sensual pleasure but don’t practice Dhamma are the most miserable, or something like that. I’ll have a look when I get home from work.

[nirodh27]

Now, consider the pleasure seeker who seeks wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means, and who makes themselves happy and pleased, and shares it and makes merit. And they enjoy that wealth untied, uninfatuated, unattached, seeing the drawbacks, and understanding the escape. They may be praised on four grounds. They seek for wealth using legitimate, non-coercive means. This is the first ground for praise. They make themselves happy and pleased. This is the second ground for praise. They share it and make merit. This is the third ground for praise. They enjoy that wealth untied, uninfatuated, unattached, seeing the drawbacks, and understanding the escape. This is the fourth ground for praise. This pleasure seeker may be praised on these four grounds.

This is certainly good advice btw!

I’ll have a look when I get home from work.

Thank you

[rekoW]

They enjoy that wealth untied, uninfatuated, unattached, seeing the drawbacks, and understanding the escape. This is the fourth ground for praise. This pleasure seeker may be praised on these four grounds.

This is certainly good advice btw!

This sounds like it might make me unhappy. If i went for a swim in the beautiful seaside but i kept thinking about sharks in the sea i would not be pleasurable for me from it. If i kept thikning my girlfriend will leave me for another boyfriend i might be unhappy and not a pleasure seeker.

[bpallister]

I searched on Sutta Central but I can't find it. Sorry, friend.

[nirodh27]

This sounds like it might make me unhappy. If i went for a swim in the beautiful seaside but i kept thinking about sharks in the sea i would not be pleasurable for me from it. If i kept thikning my girlfriend will leave me for another boyfriend i might be unhappy and not a pleasure seeker.

Hi rekoW,

It depends on your approach. The Buddha says to enjoy the wealth and seeing the drawbacks, not get depressed by them. The key is be honest and knowing the escape: by knowing that renunciation is the escape of the Dukkha caused by the instability/unreliabily/peril of the usual kinds of sensual pleasure that we consume (seaside swim, girlfiend) you know that renunciation is always at your hand to save you. That is why, imho, a stream enterer, cannot go in places/states of mind like hells or hungry ghosts, because he knows that Dukkha can immediately be abandoned by abandoning the craving/attachment, the direct cause of it.

I think that you have to read the advice as a safety net. For those who wants to renunciate is good to focus on the drawbacks to foster dispassion, for those who have already understood that dispassion is the highest, but they cannot go forth, the drawbacks are something that are to be kept in mind for their own benefit, more so remembering that the escape is always there.

Sati (memory of the teachings) is described many times as a safety net, it can be "slow in arising" as is said in a sutta, but it will intervene to save you or will accompany you in your life even if you, for various reasons (like responsabilities, putting the other person in great disadvantage), don't want to follow the renunciant path at his fullest. It is only when you don't have the safety net of the knowing of the escape that losing something can threaten you, because you don't know any other escape from Dukkha than sensual pleasures.

[nirodh27]

I searched on Sutta Central but I can't find it. Sorry, friend.

Very appreciated, thanks.