You can let the body sleep but the mind awake.

[SarathW]

LOL - dude is making 'sutta reference pls' into a meme.

No sutta gonna back what I gonna say.
Back to Original Post about experience described -
It sounds like u were in neither perception nor perception. did it not break into nirodha?

No.
I have the perception.
I like people to learn to refer back to Sutta to verify their experience.
If not you end up making wrong evaluation of your progress.
Some people take this as Nibbana etc.

Re - sutta reference
that is a false sense of security, a ritually behavior.
Mistake gonna occur with or without sutta ref. It is inevitable.

Comments are to inspire, widen perspectives.
If you treat this forum a crowd sutta index, would it be rather boring.

If people present their experiences without Sutta support, this forum will be a net of all views"" DN1.

[Joe.c]

Please provide the Sutta reference.

The quote I provided is from Sutta of Khuddaka Nikaya (Thera Gatha).

I can provide all the sutta, but i know you will never satisfy.

Just look at MN 36 and MN 125, maybe you will understand. But most probably not, because doubt needs to be uprooted first before one can proceed much further.

To know the arahant experience, One needs to be close to that level i.e. at samadhi level at least. Otherwise, one will not know or completely miss it.

Good luck.

[confusedlayman]

Did h get bliss feeling ?

[maniture_85]

If people present their experiences without Sutta support, this forum will be a net of all views"" DN1.

As a lay pratictioner, and having based my practice mostly on direct experience and on my own reasoning, i've always struggled with suttas.
I often found useful informations elsewhere.
There may be many cases when one cannot find back the sutta reference, even if he has been able to find a sutta reference for his own experience, which is not that easy in my experience.

[confusedlayman]

viewtopic.php?p=517655#p517655

[maniture_85]

viewtopic.php?p=517655#p517655

It looks a nice attainment (which i can relate to, at a first look), but from the description i think it is something different.
Also note, as far as my understanding is, what SarathW is referring to is a completely self sustained state, no need at all to concentrate to sustain it for a long time.

[confusedlayman]

viewtopic.php?p=517655#p517655

It looks a nice attainment (which i can relate to, at a first look), but from the description i think it is something different.
Also note, as far as my understanding is, what SarathW is referring to is a completely self sustained state, no need at all to concentrate to sustain it for a long time.

I am interested in body asleep but mind awake state. Its hard to induce at will. But its the gateway to higher mind (where 5 sence dont exist in first person exp but one is concious of bliss/piti)

I just enquire about translate as this monk knows about this maybe someone can ask him more about these states and maybe get english translation.

[Joe.c]

interested in body asleep but mind awake state. Its hard to induce at will. But its the gateway to higher mind (where 5 sence dont exist in first person exp but one is concious of bliss/piti)

I just enquire about translate as this monk knows about this maybe someone can ask him more about these states and maybe get english translation.

If one is at this level, they are at 2nd jhana (if there is no more vitakka vicara). Problem is can one maintain it? Piti here is very subtle though, not extreme bliss as most commentaries stated.

If one enters this state and able maintain it with right view till end of life. One has become non returner at the very least.

But if one enter without right view and one can maintain this state till end of life. One will go to 2nd jhana plane brahma realm. But one can go back to lower realms again after that.

Btw, this state is not easy to reach. It needs practice over and over. Also needs good/perfect morality as foundation imo.

Problem if you wish to reach this state, you will never reach it ever again. Because one need to let go the desire if you understand what I meant.

[maniture_85]

interested in body asleep but mind awake state. Its hard to induce at will. But its the gateway to higher mind (where 5 sence dont exist in first person exp but one is concious of bliss/piti)

I just enquire about translate as this monk knows about this maybe someone can ask him more about these states and maybe get english translation.

If one is at this level, they are at 2nd jhana (if there is no more vitakka vicara). Problem is can one maintain it? Piti here is very subtle though, not extreme bliss as most commentaries stated.

If one enters this state and able maintain it with right view till end of life. One has become non returner at the very least.

But if one enter without right view and one can maintain this state till end of life. One will go to 2nd jhana plane brahma realm. But one can go back to lower realms again after that.

Btw, this state is not easy to reach. It needs practice over and over. Also needs good/perfect morality as foundation imo.

Problem if you wish to reach this state, you will never reach it ever again. Because one need to let go the desire if you understand what I meant.

I agree on the first when you talk about the bliss.

I'm not sure about the exact meaning of the second.
Do you mean it needs some kind of effort in order to maintain this state once one has entered it?
And what in the case one is "able" to maintain it for just 1 year? That would be so sad for one

[Joe.c]

I'm not sure about the exact meaning of the second.
Do you mean it needs some kind of effort in order to maintain this state once one has entered it?
And what in the case one is "able" to maintain it for just 1 year? That would be so sad for one

To reach jhana (samadhi), one needs to renounce the sensual pleasure/realm.

If you still have attachment to family or works or material things, it will be difficult to reach samadhi.

The Buddha ways is the best way, because with right view and precepts on daily life. Samadhi is easier to reach. Just sit for short period, one can reach samadhi with those 2 foundations.

Initially when one practice samma sati/samma samadhi one needs samma vayama (effort). One can reach samadhi for 1 sec, on next practice for 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours, 4 hours, 1 day, 3 day, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 3 months, 1 year, eventually all the time.

When one has reach the samadhi all the time, the effort will not be needed again. It will become automatic.

Therefore, a non returner and an arahant will have samadhi all the time in my book. But this view is not popular in current belief.

So i suggest go practice and see/proof who is correct. Don't waste the opportunity with this human body.

But not easy to reach samadhi. It may take couple lifes. But if you have a guidance from noble who has reached this state. It should be easy.

But again don't take my words wholly. The best part of dhamma is ehipassiko (come and verify yourself through your own practice).

Btw, When one reach samadhi and able to maintain for 1 year. It will be the best thing that will happen for that person. This state is far away from 5 senses. Totally tranquil and serene.

[maniture_85]

I'm not sure about the exact meaning of the second.
Do you mean it needs some kind of effort in order to maintain this state once one has entered it?
And what in the case one is "able" to maintain it for just 1 year? That would be so sad for one

...

Initially when one practice samma sati/samma samadhi one needs samma vayama (effort). One can reach samadhi for 1 sec, on next practice for 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours, 4 hours, 1 day, 3 day, 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, 3 months, 1 year, eventually all the time.

When one has reach the samadhi all the time, the effort will not be needed again. It will become automatic.

Therefore, a non returner and an arahant will have samadhi all the time in my book. But this view is not popular in current belief.

So i suggest go practice and see/proof who is correct. Don't waste the opportunity with this human body.

But not easy to reach samadhi. It may take couple lifes. But if you have a guidance from noble who has reached this state. It should be easy.

But again don't take my words wholly. The best part of dhamma is ehipassiko (come and verify yourself through your own practice).

Btw, When one reach samadhi and able to maintain for 1 year. It will be the best thing that will happen for that person. This state is far away from 5 senses. Totally tranquil and serene.

I agree on the fact that Anagamis and above have continuous concentration.
But the point of development of samadhi is not clear to me.
Since entering samadhi is not automatic for the most, then how can one stay in samadhi for days or months? Is then one able to automatically enter samadhi as soon as he wakes up? Does he fall asleep in samadhi?
Based on my first sentence, an Anagami and above can do it, others can't. Because one will surely miss the intention to maintain concentration within one year.
Then, it looks to me that one can reach perpetual concentration by reaching Anagamiship.

[confusedlayman]

joe c is not consistant with sutta

[Joe.c]

I agree on the fact that Anagamis and above have continuous concentration. …

I wish i can chat with you. Maybe it is easier to discuss and understand where you are at.

I suggest start from 1st step, right view. Know the condition for this first step such as associate with ariya, hear true dhamma with focus attention. Start easy first with precepts.

If you want to learn, please search Late Bhante Punnaji video. Although, he was not popular in this forum because of the way he was translating. But please be prepare to change your view and understanding. Your world might go upside down.

But the point of development of samadhi is not clear to me. Since entering samadhi is not automatic for the most, then how can one stay in samadhi for days or months?

It needs right view and perfect precepts as foundation. So practice precepts daily (24/7). Without precepts, there will be no samadhi. So precepts need to become automatic first before samadhi can become automatic.

Although most people would disagree with me as well. Most say one doesn’t need precepts for samadhi. So, investigate who is correct.

Note: for precepts, look SN 55.7 and MN 61.

Is then one able to automatically enter samadhi as soon as he wakes up? Does he fall asleep in samadhi?

Only an arahant has removed drowsiness (cause for sleeping). Anagami hasn’t completely remove drowsiness due to leftover. One who has developed samadhi will not need sleep long, 2-3 hours will do. Some day might not need any sleep because the body is completely relax all day long due to samadhi.

In my book, this state is maintain for an arahant. There is no dream. The mind of arahant is so pure, it is just impossible to sleep.

Btw i don’t translate samadhi as concentration. It is misleading. Samadhi means balance, State of equilibrium for me.

So in samadhi, one can focus (concentrate), but totally relax at the same time. Five senses can operate, but the mind totally detach from them. Mind didn’t take any pleasure/aversion from 5 senses.

Btw if you want to reach samadhi, please be prepare to stop doing any household work. Because they are incompatible.

Based on my first sentence, an Anagami and above can do it, others can't. Because one will surely miss the intention to maintain concentration within one year.
Then, it looks to me that one can reach perpetual concentration by reaching Anagamiship.

That is my understanding. Only anagami and above can maintain samadhi. If anagami and arahant don’t know they have maintained samadhi, how can they declared the non returner status or job is done?

Btw, there is an outsider who has reached samadhi as well, he/she also can maintain samadhi. You might find them in current buddhism as well.

So one needs to investigate which one is samma samadhi, and which one is micha samadhi. Not easy nowadays. But don’t worry not many has reached samadhi.

Just look at the way they breath, or the shaking/movement of the body. If the breath is still coarse and body still move a lot and uncontrollable. One will know he/she hasn’t reached/maintained samadhi.

So start from first step, right view. Always remember first step. Review your knowledge from time to time.

As long as the path can remove/end dukkha(s), one is in the correct path.

Good luck.

[maniture_85]

I agree on the fact that Anagamis and above have continuous concentration. …

I wish i can chat with you. Maybe it is easier to discuss and understand where you are at.

I suggest start from 1st step, right view. Know the condition for this first step such as associate with ariya, hear true dhamma with focus attention. Start easy first with precepts.

If you want to learn, please search Late Bhante Punnaji video. Although, he was not popular in this forum because of the way he was translating. But please be prepare to change your view and understanding. Your world might go upside down.

But the point of development of samadhi is not clear to me. Since entering samadhi is not automatic for the most, then how can one stay in samadhi for days or months?

It needs right view and perfect precepts as foundation. So practice precepts daily (24/7). Without precepts, there will be no samadhi. So precepts need to become automatic first before samadhi can become automatic.

Although most people would disagree with me as well. Most say one doesn’t need precepts for samadhi. So, investigate who is correct.

Note: for precepts, look SN 55.7 and MN 61.

Is then one able to automatically enter samadhi as soon as he wakes up? Does he fall asleep in samadhi?

Only an arahant has removed drowsiness (cause for sleeping). Anagami hasn’t completely remove drowsiness due to leftover. One who has developed samadhi will not need sleep long, 2-3 hours will do. Some day might not need any sleep because the body is completely relax all day long due to samadhi.

In my book, this state is maintain for an arahant. There is no dream. The mind of arahant is so pure, it is just impossible to sleep.

Btw i don’t translate samadhi as concentration. It is misleading. Samadhi means balance, State of equilibrium for me.

So in samadhi, one can focus (concentrate), but totally relax at the same time. Five senses can operate, but the mind totally detach from them. Mind didn’t take any pleasure/aversion from 5 senses.

Btw if you want to reach samadhi, please be prepare to stop doing any household work. Because they are incompatible.

Based on my first sentence, an Anagami and above can do it, others can't. Because one will surely miss the intention to maintain concentration within one year.
Then, it looks to me that one can reach perpetual concentration by reaching Anagamiship.

That is my understanding. Only anagami and above can maintain samadhi. If anagami and arahant don’t know they have maintained samadhi, how can they declared the non returner status or job is done?

Btw, there is an outsider who has reached samadhi as well, he/she also can maintain samadhi. You might find them in current buddhism as well.

So one needs to investigate which one is samma samadhi, and which one is micha samadhi. Not easy nowadays. But don’t worry not many has reached samadhi.

Just look at the way they breath, or the shaking/movement of the body. If the breath is still coarse and body still move a lot and uncontrollable. One will know he/she hasn’t reached/maintained samadhi.

So start from first step, right view. Always remember first step. Review your knowledge from time to time.

As long as the path can remove/end dukkha(s), one is in the correct path.

Good luck.

I'm always available if one needs some advice or wishes to confront one of his experiences.

I'm aware it is quite a complex topic, and it could have differences from tradition to tradition. For example, in Mahayana the "Arahat" stage is something different, where the enlightened one is integrated in society and so has different qualities compared to an ever sitting enlightened on the mountain For example, he still have some kind of lust, or a kind of sexual attraction, but is not controlled by it.

As i stated in this forum ( if i remember correctly ) i think precepts are not strictly needed, at least for some people.
I've been able to proceed on the path still using "low class" intoxicants ( i decided to avoid alcohol, for reasons ) and break some of the other precepts from time to time. But always keeping in mind right view and right intention to proceed on the path, even with errors.
In my opinion, one should not strive for perfection, as it is counterproductive, but one should strive for understanding.
Then every act, speech, or even tought, pure or impure, has always to be reviewed with honesty and skills. I found this way very fruitful, and a quick way to get good results because of the constant seeking of the truth, even not being a perfect or an ideal pratictioner.
Why? Because it brings knowledge about oneself, reviewing the bad effects of bad action/speech/thought, reviewing the good effects of good action/speech/tought. So, knowledge of good and evil becomes increasingly clear, and you become more and more aware of the effects of the law of nature. So, i used to, as far as it was possible, continuously review my knowledge. This brings to a more pure sila on the long run, as it is fruit of understanding istead of "blind" faith in precepts.
Of course, it needs right view.

This is not for everyone, the path can be somehow different from person to person.
Like going to a monastery and stay closed there meditating all day long. Not my path, or not the best way to get results, for me.

Thanks for your advices and encouragement.

[Johann]

You can let the body sleep but the mind awake.

I experienced this phenomenon a few years back and I reported it in Dhamma Wheel in one of my posts.
I have never seen this described in any of the Dhamma books.
However to my surprise the very famous meditation master Uda Eriya Dhammavijaya Thero recommended this to one of his students.
According to him you can let the body sleep and keep Sati awakened.
He said you can do this for about three days.

I have not experienced this for a long time but I am pleased that my experience is confirmed by a meditation master.
If you have experience with this or if you have any resources to support this please share.

The following video is in the Sinhalese language and is provided here to support my post as a reference only.

What's a sleeping body, good householder? One not moving? Of course there is the ascetic practice of not letting fall asleep, which is a very effective one, yet can cause certain troubles, as one easy gets use to it. One reaches by such a high level or mindfulness and alertness, yet surely not a practice for one with duties in the world (if wishing to uphold them).

It's nothing special to "work" three days non-stop, even if not letting "body sleep". Common under hard working in the world.