sense bases disappear ?

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Spiny Norman
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:05 am
1. ....Stating the obvious, but one of the key points of disagreement between some models and some other models is whether all of that cessation happens immediately..
I used to favour the gradual "winding down" interpretation of cessation, but I don't find it convincing now.

Firstly because that isn't what the DO suttas describe. They describe a straightforward progressive cessation, like falling dominoes, with no indication of a partial or extended process.

Secondly because I don't see how the nidanas could wind down gradually.
Eg, craving ceases with the attainment of Nbbana, but clinging continues for a while?
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retrofuturist
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Spiny,
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:16 am Firstly because that isn't what the DO suttas describe. They describe a straightforward progressive cessation, like falling dominoes, with no indication of a partial or extended process.
One criteria I applied when trying to get a better understanding of paticcasamuppada is that that which arises, is that which must cease. If something arises, but in explaining what has ceased you find yourself changing its description or how it works, then it's suspect.

Hence, if we take the "three lifetime" model, it takes two full lifetimes to get to aging, death and suffering. Therefore the removal of ignorance would also require two more lifetimes until it winds its way through the chain and takes effect as complete cessation. As we know, no such thing is said in the Suttas, nor is it even claimed by the commentarial tradition. Therefore the treatment of what arises is not being consistent with that which ceases.

I believe any explanation must be consistent in this regard to be trustworthy, rather than being a hodge-podge patchwork of papanca.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:23 am Hence, if we take the "three lifetime" model, it takes two full lifetimes to get to aging, death and suffering. Therefore the removal of ignorance would also require two more lifetimes until it winds its way through the chain and takes effect as complete cessation. As we know, no such thing is said in the Suttas, nor is it even claimed by the commentarial tradition. Therefore the treatment of what arises is not being consistent with that which ceases.
Perhaps you could explain how to come to that conclusion, since I can't imagine how that could happen. To me, the description in MN140 seems quite compatible with "winding down". There's nothing to cause future births, so:
“If he feels a pleasant feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a painful feeling, he feels it detached; if he feels a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he feels it detached. When he feels a feeling terminating with the body, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with the body.’ When he feels a feeling terminating with life, he understands: ‘I feel a feeling terminating with life.’ He understands: ‘On the dissolution of the body, with the ending of life, all that is felt, not being delighted in, will become cool right here.’
https://suttacentral.net/mn140
Perhaps your model is much more linear than mine, or has some quirks that I don't understand.

:heart:
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AlexBrains92
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:23 am Hence, if we take the "three lifetime" model, it takes two full lifetimes to get to aging, death and suffering. Therefore the removal of ignorance would also require two more lifetimes until it winds its way through the chain and takes effect as complete cessation.
I pointed out this a while ago too, probably in 'the great rebirth debate' :goodpost:

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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retrofuturist
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
AlexBrains92 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:10 am I pointed out this a while ago too, probably in 'the great rebirth debate' :goodpost:
Well done. It's just being honest and respecting the symmetry of idappaccayata.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Coëmgenu
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:10 am
retrofuturist wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:23 am Hence, if we take the "three lifetime" model, it takes two full lifetimes to get to aging, death and suffering. Therefore the removal of ignorance would also require two more lifetimes until it winds its way through the chain and takes effect as complete cessation.
I pointed out this a while ago too, probably in 'the great rebirth debate' :goodpost:
Unfortunately, this is completely wrong. The Gnosis of the Arhat is in the here-and-now. In the here-and-now, he knows that birth and death has ended, and it is blissful. This is Arhat-slander, to suggest that he isn't liberated until Parinibbāna, and Dhamma-slander to suggest that the Nibbānadhātu with life remaining isn't liberation, but people can do whatever they want. It's a free country, rhetorically speaking.

Also, I think you two should learn more about what you're actually talking about first. It doesn't take two extra lives to be liberated in traditional Theravāda. That's a foolish suggestion, not a clever one.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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AlexBrains92
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:47 am
AlexBrains92 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:10 am
retrofuturist wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:23 am Hence, if we take the "three lifetime" model, it takes two full lifetimes to get to aging, death and suffering. Therefore the removal of ignorance would also require two more lifetimes until it winds its way through the chain and takes effect as complete cessation.
I pointed out this a while ago too, probably in 'the great rebirth debate' :goodpost:
Unfortunately, this is completely wrong. The Gnosis of the Arhat is in the here-and-now. In the here-and-now, he knows that birth and death has ended, and it is blissful. This is Arhat-slander, to suggest that he isn't liberated until Parinibbāna, and Dhamma-slander to suggest that the Nibbānadhātu with life remaining isn't liberation, but people can do whatever they want. It's a free country, rhetorically speaking.

Also, I think you two should learn more about what you're actually talking about first. It doesn't take two extra lives to be liberated in traditional Theravāda. That's a foolish suggestion, not a clever one.
It's not my fault that three-lives model supporters are inconsistent.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Coëmgenu
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

You think they're inconsistent because they don't say it takes two or three more lives to be liberated? That's ridiculous. It's taking the "3" and running with it.

Clearly the issue is that you don't understand it. If it were a logical extension of its internal logic that it took three subsequent births to be liberated, that would be the Theravādin doctrine. It's not, so you should know you are wrong if you are arguing in good faith.

When the causes and conditions for subsequent birth are ended, they are ended. This can be done in this life. If you eliminate ignorance, clinging, craving and the like, in this life, how will you be born in the next? Saying it must take two or three subsequent births makes no sense according to the traditional understanding.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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AlexBrains92
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:05 pm You think they're inconsistent because they don't say it takes two or three more lives to be liberated? That's ridiculous. It's taking the "3" and running with it.

Clearly the issue is that you don't understand it. If it were a logical extension of its internal logic that it took three subsequent births to be liberated, that would be the Theravādin doctrine. It's not, so you should know you are wrong if you are arguing in good faith.

When the causes and conditions for subsequent birth are ended, they are ended. This can be done in this life. If you eliminate ignorance, clinging, craving and the like, in this life, how will you be born in the next? Saying it must take two or three subsequent births makes no sense according to the traditional understanding.
OK, so why would this current existence depend on the ignorance of two existences ago and not on the ignorance of this same existence?

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Coëmgenu
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:09 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:05 pm You think they're inconsistent because they don't say it takes two or three more lives to be liberated? That's ridiculous. It's taking the "3" and running with it.

Clearly the issue is that you don't understand it. If it were a logical extension of its internal logic that it took three subsequent births to be liberated, that would be the Theravādin doctrine. It's not, so you should know you are wrong if you are arguing in good faith.

When the causes and conditions for subsequent birth are ended, they are ended. This can be done in this life. If you eliminate ignorance, clinging, craving and the like, in this life, how will you be born in the next? Saying it must take two or three subsequent births makes no sense according to the traditional understanding.
OK, so why would this current existence depend on the ignorance of two existences ago and not on the ignorance of this same existence?
You are always in so-called "Life 2." "Life 2" is "this life." "Life 1" refers to a past life. "Life 3" is what you try to stop in this life. If you are still ignorant by the end of "Life 2" and are reborn, then "Life 2" becomes "Life 1" and "Life 3" because the new "2." It is the same as the karma-duḥkha-kleśa matrix of Venerable Nāgārjuna.

But, hey, maybe I'm wrong and you're right.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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AlexBrains92
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:19 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:09 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:05 pm You think they're inconsistent because they don't say it takes two or three more lives to be liberated? That's ridiculous. It's taking the "3" and running with it.

Clearly the issue is that you don't understand it. If it were a logical extension of its internal logic that it took three subsequent births to be liberated, that would be the Theravādin doctrine. It's not, so you should know you are wrong if you are arguing in good faith.

When the causes and conditions for subsequent birth are ended, they are ended. This can be done in this life. If you eliminate ignorance, clinging, craving and the like, in this life, how will you be born in the next? Saying it must take two or three subsequent births makes no sense according to the traditional understanding.
OK, so why would this current existence depend on the ignorance of two existences ago and not on the ignorance of this same existence?
You are always in so-called "Life 2." "Life 1" refers to a past life. "Life 3" is what you try to stop in this life.
So, what about Life 1's ignorance? Since I can't remove that, because it's not current ignorance but past one, how can I avoid my next life? That ignorance must bear its effects, no?

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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AlexBrains92
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:19 pm It is the same as the karma-duḥkha-kleśa matrix of Venerable Nāgārjuna.
No, we've already seen that it's not the same.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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asahi
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

So far there are few new age concepts which runs contrary to the Buddha's teachings , here are the list of modernists invented ideas :

1. Jati is self identity
2. Phassa is contact between self and object
3. DO is all about mental processes
4. Entire mass of stress and suffering is happening in the head
5. DO has nothing to do with rebirth
6. DO has nothing to do with future life
7. DO has nothing to do with or relate to kamma vipaka which occurs in future life
8. Aging , Sickness and Death is the aging , sickness and death of self identity

If there is anything i miss out will update later on .
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:32 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:19 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:09 pm

OK, so why would this current existence depend on the ignorance of two existences ago and not on the ignorance of this same existence?
You are always in so-called "Life 2." "Life 1" refers to a past life. "Life 3" is what you try to stop in this life.
So, what about Life 1's ignorance? Since I can't remove that, because it's not current ignorance but past one, how can I avoid my next life? That ignorance must bear its effects, no?
"This life" is "Life 2." You are experiencing the results of "Life 1" right now. If you are Awakened in this life, there will not be a "Life 3."

You never actually experience what is called "Life 3." Once that's, happening, it's already "this life," which is "Life 2."

The karma-duḥkha-kleśa matrix is similar inasmuch as it is stretched over multiple lives.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:03 pm "This life" is "Life 2." You are experiencing the results of "Life 1" right now. If you are Awakened in this life, there will not be a "Life 3."

You never actually experience what is called "Life 3." Once that's, happening, it's already "this life," which is "Life 2."
This bears no resemblance to the Sutta Pitaka.

This is what happens when people abandon the Suttas in favour of sectarian scholasticism.

If people took the Four Great References seriously, this would never have happened

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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