sense bases disappear ?
Re: sense bases disappear ?
Consider: death and aging happen in "Life 3." You are aging and will die in "this life." A naïve understanding would suggest that, according to to 3-lives model, there is no death in this life. That's completely wrong.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: sense bases disappear ?
Au contraire, your foolish misrepresentations of what you call the 3-lives model bares no similarity to it at all.retrofuturist wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:14 pm Greetings,
This bears no resemblance to the Sutta Pitaka.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:03 pm "This life" is "Life 2." You are experiencing the results of "Life 1" right now. If you are Awakened in this life, there will not be a "Life 3."
You never actually experience what is called "Life 3." Once that's, happening, it's already "this life," which is "Life 2."
This is what happens when people abandon the Suttas in favour of sectarian scholasticism.
All the best.
Metta,
Paul.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: sense bases disappear ?
Their DO interpretation has nothing to do with past lives and life after death and continuation into more future life . Their interpretation of akaliko is timeless however limited to present life only . They leaves out past life which caused the birth of present life with birth of a body which get born into this world due to kamma vipaka . It is all about Psychological experiences . Am i right ? Psychologically there is an "i" get birth , if by luck this "self" somehow get eliminated at present life , there you go , you are liberated , however , if it happens that they are out of luck , dont worry at all , who really ever say anything about future life .
Last edited by asahi on Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No bashing No gossiping
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Re: sense bases disappear ?
It's been a while since I studied the three-lives model of DO, but I think it goes like this:
Past life:
Avijja
Sankhara
Present life:
Vinnana
Nama-rupa
Ayatana
Phassa
Vedana
Tanha
Upadana
Bhava
Future life:
Jati
Jara-marana
Past life:
Avijja
Sankhara
Present life:
Vinnana
Nama-rupa
Ayatana
Phassa
Vedana
Tanha
Upadana
Bhava
Future life:
Jati
Jara-marana
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: sense bases disappear ?
More accurately, these ideas are contrary to the Visudhimagga interpretation of DO.asahi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:48 pm So far there are few new age concepts which runs contrary to the Buddha's teachings , here are the list of modernists invented ideas :
1. Jati is self identity
2. Phassa is contact between self and object
3. DO is all about mental processes
4. Entire mass of stress and suffering is happening in the head
5. DO has nothing to do with rebirth
6. DO has nothing to do with future life
7. DO has nothing to do with or relate to kamma vipaka which occurs in future life
8. Aging , Sickness and Death is the aging , sickness and death of self identity
If there is anything i miss out will update later on .
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: sense bases disappear ?
So with the 3-lives model, which present-life nidana includes aging and death? Is it bhava?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: sense bases disappear ?
So you disagrees with Visudhimagga ?Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:44 pm More accurately, these ideas are contrary to the Visudhimagga interpretation of DO.
You now think all this modernists are somehow getting it correct after twenty five hundred years + ?
No bashing No gossiping
Re: sense bases disappear ?
My presentation of the Theravādin model is based more or less entirely on an only-passing familiarity with it. It's mostly based on Madhyamaka and Vaibhāṣika Buddhism, i.e. the matrix I mentioned before, which is not exactly the same between the two. It's possible I'm making significant errors in my presentation of the Theravādin view. That being said, I think that the nidānas of aging and death are in this life, just as they were in the past life. While we are being born, aging, dying, we are afflicted, and generating the karma that will lead to rebirth. If there is no Bodhi, any given life is all three lives at once, depending on your frame of reference, as far as I can see.Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:49 pmSo with the 3-lives model, which present-life nidana includes aging and death? Is it bhava?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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- Posts: 10184
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
- Location: Andromeda looks nice
Re: sense bases disappear ?
Ancient commentaries aren't necessarily more "true" than modern ones.asahi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:58 pmSo you disagrees with Visudhimagga ?Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:44 pm More accurately, these ideas are contrary to the Visudhimagga interpretation of DO.
You now think all this modernists are somehow getting it correct after twenty five hundred years + ?
You really need to examine the DO suttas in SN12, and in particular the nidana "definitions' in SN12.2.
From my reading, both ancient and modern interpretations make a lot of assumptions. The general problem, IMO, is that the assumptions are not clearly acknowledged.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: sense bases disappear ?
This is the aforementioned karma-duḥkha-kleśa matrix.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: sense bases disappear ?
That is what I would call a "modernist" model of DO. Venerable Puññaji has a different one that is better, but I still think it's wrong, otherwise having general respect for him as a relatively wise man.asahi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:40 pmTheir DO interpretation has nothing to do with past lives and life after death and continuation into more future life . Their interpretation of akaliko is timeless however limited to present life only . They leaves out past life which caused the birth of present life with birth of a body which get born into this world due to kamma vipaka . It is all about Psychological experiences . Am i right ? Psychologically there is an "i" get birth , if by luck this "self" somehow get eliminated at present life , there you go , you are liberated , however , if it happens that they are out of luck , dont worry at all , who really ever say anything about future life .
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: sense bases disappear ?
Sure but ponder about this . Maybe you can say , it happens that one is born into this world by fate , somehow you get interested into the practice but by virtue of lucks you have stumbled upon modernists theories , DO doesnt have to talk about past lives , kamma vipaka and rebirth , your brood and misfortune now becomes inconsequential . Thanks Lord .Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:09 pm Ancient commentaries aren't necessarily more "true" than modern ones.
No bashing No gossiping
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Re: sense bases disappear ?
There seem to be different ways of reading the suttas. One is liberation from an infinite cycle of births (reminiscent of "Hinduism"), the other is a more prosaic "pyschological" liberation from suffering.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: sense bases disappear ?
The Buddha and the Vedic Rishis had the same goal in mind. From a Buddhist POV, they, the Rishis, were hopelessly mistaken about how to go about it, and also mistaken as to what "it" (i.e. liberation/nibbāna/moksha) was.
Likely DN 1 is about the very tradition of the Vedic Rishis, at least in part.
Likely DN 1 is about the very tradition of the Vedic Rishis, at least in part.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
-
- Posts: 10184
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
- Location: Andromeda looks nice
Re: sense bases disappear ?
Do these different assumptions and beliefs change the way you practice?asahi wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:16 pmSure but ponder about this . Maybe you can say , it happens that one is born into this world by fate , somehow you get interested into the practice but by virtue of lucks you have stumbled upon modernists theories , DO doesnt have to talk about past lives , kamma vipaka and rebirth , your brood and misfortune now becomes inconsequential . Thanks Lord .Spiny Norman wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:09 pm Ancient commentaries aren't necessarily more "true" than modern ones.
If not, the question is moot.
Buddha save me from new-agers!