sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
pegembara wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:57 pm Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch, mind objects can be observed to arise and cease. Both the observer and the observed can be observed! They are dependently co-arisen.
Yes.
pegembara wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:57 pmSo what’s left if both are no more?
What's described in the Bahiya Sutta. What is described there is not dependently co-arisen, hence why in this topic we've placed such a focus upon differentiating between salayatana (which is dependently co-arisen), versus the panc'indriyani and "in reference to the seen, there will be only the seen (etc.)" which aren't.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by pegembara »

"There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned."

— Ud 8.3
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
pegembara wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:10 am "There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned."

— Ud 8.3
:anjali:

It should be noted also that it is actually discerned, as opposed to something speculated upon, or relegated to post-death based upon the say-so of another.

This is analogous to...
SN 12.2 wrote:"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:45 pm In other words, if we conceive of a self in any manner (even if we sincerely tell ourselves that's not what we're doing) that experiences past and future, or transmigrates to past and future, then by sheer virtue of perceiving that self, we're repeatedly creating phassa, and thereby fuelling paticcasamuppada itself through such wrongness.

I certainly agree that "if we conceive of a self in any manner", that's an unawakened view. As a prelude to his awakening the bodhisattva (not yet awakened) realised that this taking up of selves was a mistake:
When my mind had become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—I extenknowlegesded it toward recollection of past lives. I recollected many kinds of past lives.

That is: one, two, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand rebirths; many eons of the world contracting, many eons of the world expanding, many eons of the world contracting and expanding. I remembered: ‘There, I was named this, my clan was that, I looked like this, and that was my food. This was how I felt pleasure and pain, and that was how my life ended. When I passed away from that place I was reborn somewhere else. There, too, I was named this, my clan was that, I looked like this, and that was my food. This was how I felt pleasure and pain, and that was how my life ended. When that, among other things, this taking up of identities was problematic. I passed away from that place I was reborn here.’ And so I recollected my many kinds of past lives, with features and details.
...
When my mind had become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—I extended it toward knowledge of the death and rebirth of sentient beings.

With clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, I saw sentient beings passing away and being reborn—inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, in a good place or a bad place. I understood how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds: ‘These dear beings did bad things by way of body, speech, and mind. They spoke ill of the noble ones; they had wrong view; and they chose to act out of that wrong view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a place of loss, a bad place, the underworld, hell. These dear beings, however, did good things by way of body, speech, and mind. They never spoke ill of the noble ones; they had right view; and they chose to act out of that right view. When their body breaks up, after death, they’re reborn in a good place, a heavenly realm.’ And so, with clairvoyance that is purified and superhuman, I saw sentient beings passing away and being reborn—inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, in a good place or a bad place. I understood how sentient beings are reborn according to their deeds.
https://suttacentral.net/mn4/en/sujato? ... ript=latin
Seeing this causality over time, this endless (wrongheaded, as you say) taking up of identities, was part of what aided his awakening. The two knowledges quoted above don't appear to have been a requirement for all arahants, but it would seem curious to dismiss these descriptions as irrelevant, as they appear to give some insight into the processes and identities that we need to let go of.

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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:37 am Seeing this causality over time...
Is seeing, and should be differentiated from speculative theories that are hammered out on the anvil on logic.

Similarly, when the Buddha shows arising via paticcasamuppada, he does so not because arising is great or to be seen as a wise, or given, or "objectively true" activity... but because seeing the causality of fabrication brings about wisdom, which can dislodge avijja, which brings about the end of arising and fabrication, and in doing so, brings about cessation (nirodha).

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Jack19990101 »

As to Phassa -

Phassa is an perceiving model to be discarded.
Transcended Dhamma contemplation should be via model of Knowledge & vision.

In BrahmaJala Sutta, after long list of wrong views, Buddha sums the reason those views are wrong - because those wrong views are investigated by model of Phassa.

Thus, it is waste of one's time to contemplate dhamma without first develop Direct Knowledge as perceiving model. As any views concluded by Phassa, would be already wrong.

To develop Direct knowledge, one needs to do anapanasati or the other themes prescribed by Buddha.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by pegembara »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:26 am Greetings,
pegembara wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:10 am "There is, monks, an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned."

— Ud 8.3
:anjali:

It should be noted also that it is actually discerned, as opposed to something speculated upon, or relegated to post-death based upon the say-so of another.

This is analogous to...
SN 12.2 wrote:"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
Metta,
Paul. :)
Yes. Something that is observed.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by pegembara »

mikenz66 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:37 am
Seeing this causality over time, this endless (wrongheaded, as you say) taking up of identities, was part of what aided his awakening. The two knowledges quoted above don't appear to have been a requirement for all arahants, but it would seem curious to dismiss these descriptions as irrelevant, as they appear to give some insight into the processes and identities that we need to let go of.

:heart:
Mike
Seeing past lives, present and possibly future ones are also things that can be observed by some. What's left when all these things end? When there's nothing left to observe.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:12 pm Sometimes I "lose myself" by watching ocean waves breaking. I think that's what is being referred to here, the suspension of me and mine.
Losing your self here could be a kind of momentary concentration last for a few seconds , thats not ending of self . The elimination of self view have to come from watching how the sense bases and objects works and its penetration of the conditioning which give rise to it . And the breaking of sense of self doesnt mean unification of sense bases with its objects . Liberation of here and now doesnt mean you achieved dissolution of the sense of self at present , where the bifurcation ended , that is a mistaken understanding , instead , delusion held on view that there is a self , is the one that is being destroy . So , saying that there is a bifurcation between sense bases and sense objects give rise to self is the teachings of non dualism but sheer humbug an utter claptrap and certainly not Buddha's teachings .
Another thing is , the perspective that the panca indriya are some sort of "power"/"ability" are but some misleading and the phonus bolonus bogus . The indriya clearly are referring to the sense bases . There are other sutta can prove that indriya refers to sense bases .
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:54 am Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:37 am Seeing this causality over time...
Is seeing, and should be differentiated from speculative theories that are hammered out on the anvil on logic.

Similarly, when the Buddha shows arising via paticcasamuppada, he does so not because arising is great or to be seen as a wise, or given, or "objectively true" activity... but because seeing the causality of fabrication brings about wisdom, which can dislodge avijja, which brings about the end of arising and fabrication, and in doing so, brings about cessation (nirodha).

Metta,
Paul. :)
Exactlly, which is why this endless speculation and argument about what is an isn't a dhamma or phenomena or whatnot seems rather irrelevant to my practice. The texts are a guide to practice, not something to be dissected by logic.

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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

Fortunately for you, the sankhata-dhammas of paticcasamuppada are all fabricated phenomena, so it can be relevant to your practice, rather than conjecture or rationalisation.

:anjali:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

There is a sutta here , you can check out whether it is about the sense base or something else .
SN 35.235 :

You’d be better off mutilating your eye faculty with a red-hot iron nail, burning, blazing and glowing, than getting caught up in the features by way of the details in sights known by the eye.

Varaṁ, bhikkhave, tattāya ayosalākāya ādittāya sampajjalitāya sajotibhūtāya cakkhundriyaṁ sampalimaṭṭhaṁ, na tveva cakkhuviññeyyesu rūpesu anubyañjanaso nimittaggāho. Variant: sajotibhūtāya → sañjotibhūtāya (sya-all, km)

...........

You’d be better off mutilating your body faculty with a sharp spear, burning, blazing and glowing, than getting caught up in the features by way of the details in touches known by the body.

Varaṁ, bhikkhave, tiṇhāya sattiyā ādittāya sampajjalitāya sajotibhūtāya kāyindriyaṁ sampalimaṭṭhaṁ, na tveva kāyaviññeyyesu phoṭṭhabbesu anubyañjanaso nimittaggāho
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

"You’d be better off mutilating your eye faculty with a red-hot iron nail, burning, blazing and glowing" is.

The rest isn't.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

I have no way of understanding something bizzare . :shrug:
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
asahi wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:30 am I have no way of understanding something bizzare . :shrug:
You really don't understand it?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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