sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:03 pm Do you really want a list of various times you have tried to twist words and phrases to make them not about rebirth? How about as far back as here?
There is no "twisting". There are just words and what they mean in the Sutta, as opposed to when traditions beg the question as to what they mean, so as to bolster the scaffolding of their own world views.

For example, in this topic, we have explored the many differences between salayatana and the indriyāni in the Sutta. It has become apparent that when we talk about salayatana, most people actually understand them as being something closer to indriyāni. That misunderstanding, originating from external sources and retrofitted back over the top of the Suttas, causes the internal meanings to be plastered over by puthujjana-ism.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:03 pm This is you trying to make "jati" not about "jati."
And here's another example. I don't think it means what you think it means, so you make accusations that I'm to blame for someone not sharing your view. You get animated when it is pointed out that words like "womb" aren't in there, and you are striving to affirm them despite their literal absence. Interesting, but not my doing, as much as you like to shift accusations of "twisting" words onto retrofuturist.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:03 pm you clearly deny rebirth
And no matter how many times you are told, you cling tenaciously to your views about my views. Such pointless clinging.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:58 pm Maybe there's more strife now than in the past
Strife can be arguing …
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by cappuccino »

'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life.

Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life.

Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details.


Maha-Saccaka Sutta
Last edited by cappuccino on Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:13 pmFor example, in this topic, we have explored the many differences between salayatana and the indriyāni in the Sutta. It has become apparent that when we talk about salayatana, most people actually understand them as being something closer to indriyāni. That misunderstanding, originating from external sources and retrofitted back over the top of the Suttas, causes the internal meanings to be plastered over by puthujjana-ism.
Maybe you explored like that. Maybe something like that became apparent to you. It's limited to you.

The fact that the six indriyas refer to the eye, the ear, etc., and that the six ayatanas refer to those very same things is not something that originates from an external source and is retrofitted back over the top of the suttas. It is right there in the Pali suttas. Your artificial distinction between them is something that you overlay over the suttas, and it is certainly external to them.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I've went back to page 26 trying to find this place where you finally admit that the Indriyabhavanasutta is about development of the six faculties and where you and Ceisiwr came to an agreement about this and settled it like gentlemen. I certainly can't find where such a thing happens.
retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:13 pmYou get animated when it is pointed out that words like "womb" aren't in there, and you are striving to affirm them despite their literal absence.
The issue is, you groundlessly challenge the findings of your superiors in knowledge. I can't educate you if you won't be educated. No one can educate one who will not be educated. I'm not even one of your superiors with regards to Pali knowledge, yet you shoot the messenger with accusations of being "animated."
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:26 pm The fact that the six indriyas refer to the eye, the ear, etc., and that the six ayatanas refer to those very same things is not something that originates from an external source and is retrofitted back over the top of the suttas. It is right there in the Pali suttas. Your artificial distinction between them is something that you overlay over the suttas, and it is certainly external to them.
Utter nonsense. Sutta has been provided that shows the causal factors which contribute to the arising of each, and they are markedly different.

Your commitment to plastering over the differences is what is not found in Sutta. It is found only in attachment to views.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:31 pm I've went back to page 26 trying to find this place where you finally admit that the Indriyabhavanasutta is about development of the six faculties and where you and Ceisiwr came to an agreement about this and settled it like gentlemen. I certainly can't find where such a thing happens.
You are still dazed and confused, wandering around conflating disconnected conversations. It has already been said that we were talking about the different utterances of newly enlightened arahants.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:33 pmSutta has been provided that shows the causal factors which contribute to the arising of each, and they are markedly different.
What does this actually concretely mean to you? It looks like a fluff objection to me.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:34 pm Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:31 pm I've went back to page 26 trying to find this place where you finally admit that the Indriyabhavanasutta is about development of the six faculties and where you and Ceisiwr came to an agreement about this and settled it like gentlemen. I certainly can't find where such a thing happens.
You are still dazed and confused, wandering around conflating disconnected conversations. It has already been said that we were talking about the different utterances of newly enlightened arahants.

Metta,
Paul. :)
BS baffles brains. I think that is what you are giving me, sending me on wild goose chases.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by cappuccino »

:candle:
Last edited by cappuccino on Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Coëmgenu,
retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:33 pmSutta has been provided that shows the causal factors which contribute to the arising of each, and they are markedly different.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:35 pmWhat does this actually concretely mean to you? It looks like a fluff objection to me.
If matters of causality, dependence and arising, which are pivotal to this Dhamma, are mere "fluff" to you, then no wonder you have no idea what I'm saying. I appreciate the honesty, if nothing else.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:31 pm The issue is, you groundlessly challenge the findings of your superiors in knowledge. I can't educate you if you won't be educated.
:rofl:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

Transmigration :
The movement of a soul from one body to another after death .

Rebirth :
New birth subsequent to after death of one's earlier life through the process of kamma .

If referring above , then the meaning are clear . Thus rebirth concept has no contradiction in Buddha's teachings .
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:33 pm Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:26 pm The fact that the six indriyas refer to the eye, the ear, etc., and that the six ayatanas refer to those very same things is not something that originates from an external source and is retrofitted back over the top of the suttas. It is right there in the Pali suttas. Your artificial distinction between them is something that you overlay over the suttas, and it is certainly external to them.
Utter nonsense. Sutta has been provided that shows the causal factors which contribute to the arising of each, and they are markedly different.

Your commitment to plastering over the differences is what is not found in Sutta. It is found only in attachment to views.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
When I showed you two suttas which show that the texts equate them as being one in the same you dismissed it, further arguing if I recall that birth has nothing to do with life.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:38 pm Greetings Coëmgenu,
retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:33 pmSutta has been provided that shows the causal factors which contribute to the arising of each, and they are markedly different.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:35 pmWhat does this actually concretely mean to you? It looks like a fluff objection to me.
If matters of causality, dependence and arising, which are pivotal to this Dhamma, are mere "fluff" to you, then no wonder you have no idea what I'm saying. I appreciate the honesty, if nothing else.

Metta,
Paul. :)
No, Paul. Your words are fluff to me.

Do you acknowledge that there is a difference between what you say and what is "pivotal to this Dhamma," or do you think that they are utterly the same and will not accept that they are not?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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