sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ceisiwr,

I disagree.

In his own thinking, which doesn't need to be compromised in any way for the purposes of communication, he would have no need whatsoever to think in terms of what he knows to be falsehoods.
AN 3.33 wrote:“When there is in a monk no I-making or my-making conceit-
obsession with regard to this conscious body, no I-making or my-
making conceit-obsession with regard to all external themes, and
when he enters & remains in the awareness-release & discernment-
release where there is no I-making or my-making conceit-obsession
for one entering & remaining in it
, he is called a monk who has cut
craving, has ripped off the fetter, and—from rightly breaking
through conceit—has put an end to suffering & stress.
Ud 1.10 wrote:"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."
MN 109 wrote:“There is the case, monk, where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person—who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma—assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form.

“He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling, or feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. He assumes perception to be the self, or the self as possessing perception, or perception as in the self, or the self as in perception. He assumes fabrications to be the self, or the self as possessing fabrications, or fabrications as in the self, or the self as in fabrications. He assumes consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness.

“This, monk, is how self-identification view comes about.”

Saying, “Very good, lord,” the monk… asked him a further question: “Lord, how does self-identification view no longer come about?”

“There is the case, monk, where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones—who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for people of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma—doesn’t assume form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. He doesn’t assume feeling to be the self.… doesn’t assume perception to be the self.… doesn’t assume fabrications to be the self.… He doesn’t assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness.

“This, monk, is how self-identification view no longer comes about.”
DN 15 wrote:“Having directly known the extent of designation and the extent
of the objects of designation, the extent of expression and the extent
of the objects of expression, the extent of description and the extent
of the objects of description, the extent of discernment and the
extent of the objects of discernment, the extent to which the cycle
revolves: Having directly known that, the monk is released.”
AN 6.104 wrote:“In seeing six rewards, it’s enough for a monk to establish the
perception of not-self with regard to all phenomena without
exception. Which six? ‘I won’t be fashioned in connection with any
world. My I-making will be stopped. My my-making will be
stopped. I’ll be endowed with uncommon knowledge. I’ll become
one who rightly sees cause, along with causally-originated
phenomena.’”
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
pegembara
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by pegembara »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:49 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:48 am Your ability to underline certainly is impressive
Not self is different than no self
Quite true that. Belonging to no one, ownerless. Sabbe dhamma anatta.
But what does being ownerless imply?
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

Show me one sutta where Buddha said jati is directly about "self" or "i" .
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
asahi wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:58 am Show me one sutta where Buddha said jati is directly about "self" or "i" .
I'll point you back to this old post, rather than recreate it from scratch.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

From link you provided .

And what, bhikkhus, is birth? The birth of the various beings into the various orders of beings, their being born, descent into the womb, production, the manifestation of the aggregates, the obtaining of the sense bases. This is called birth.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Asahi,

This "womb" hubbub is a gratuitous insertion on the part of the translator - totally absent in the Pali. A more faithful, more accurate, and less puthujjana-ised translation is provided by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.
It's far better as it speaks of acquisition, coming to be, and appearance, as well as groups of beings, per what I quoted above about how the word jati is actually used in India.

This is a good example of how translators often puthujjana-ise the Suttas, and in doing so, lead people into thinking puthujjana-ism is the Dhamma.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:01 pm For example, it's hard to classify vedana as a purely mental or a purely physical thing, similar for rupa, which is sometimes quite physical, and sometimes more mental (the forms we perceive with our eyes or our imagination).

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Mike
Interesting point, which probably explains the different intepretations of DO, mental v. physical.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:50 am Interesting point, which probably explains the different intepretations of DO, mental v. physical.
Moreover, being sankhata (fabricated) and dependent upon something else is what is central to paticcasamuppada... not mental vs physical. The mental vs physical classification is the Abhidhammic legacy of namas and rupas, retrospectively shoehorned back into paticcasamuppada.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:54 am Greetings,
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:50 am Interesting point, which probably explains the different intepretations of DO, mental v. physical.
Moreover, being sankhata (fabricated) and dependent upon something else is what is central to paticcasamuppada... not mental vs physical. The mental vs physical classification is the Abhidhammic legacy of namas and rupas, retrospectively shoehorned back into paticcasamuppada.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Though in SN12.2, the rupa aspect of nama-rupa has it's standard sutta definition, ie the four great elements ("physical") and the form derived from them ("mental").
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:16 am
retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:54 am Greetings,
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:50 am Interesting point, which probably explains the different intepretations of DO, mental v. physical.
Moreover, being sankhata (fabricated) and dependent upon something else is what is central to paticcasamuppada... not mental vs physical. The mental vs physical classification is the Abhidhammic legacy of namas and rupas, retrospectively shoehorned back into paticcasamuppada.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Though in SN12.2, the rupa aspect of nama-rupa has it's standard sutta definition, ie the four great elements ("physical") and the form derived from them ("mental").
Derived form isn’t mental.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

So what is ,

~ Rebirth in hell , the animal realm, the ghost realm, the human world, and the world of the gods means ?
:?

~ The results of deeds in this very life, on rebirth in the next life, or at some later time means ?
:o


:shrug:
AN 6.63
There are deeds that lead to rebirth in hell, the animal realm, the ghost realm, the human world, and the world of the gods. This is called the diversity of deeds.

And what is the result of deeds? The result of deeds is threefold, I say: in this very life, on rebirth in the next life, or at some later time. This is called the result of deeds.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:23 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:16 am
retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:54 am Greetings,


Moreover, being sankhata (fabricated) and dependent upon something else is what is central to paticcasamuppada... not mental vs physical. The mental vs physical classification is the Abhidhammic legacy of namas and rupas, retrospectively shoehorned back into paticcasamuppada.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Though in SN12.2, the rupa aspect of nama-rupa has it's standard sutta definition, ie the four great elements ("physical") and the form derived from them ("mental").
Derived form isn’t mental.
So if I'm looking at the ocean, what does "derived form" or "visible form" mean? Is it just light rays, is it colours and shapes moving, or what exactly?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:48 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:23 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:16 am

Though in SN12.2, the rupa aspect of nama-rupa has it's standard sutta definition, ie the four great elements ("physical") and the form derived from them ("mental").
Derived form isn’t mental.
So if I'm looking at the ocean, what does "derived form" or "visible form" mean? Is it just light rays, is it colours and shapes moving, or what exactly?
Today we would call it H2O, electromagnetic radiation and baryonic matter.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:54 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 4:50 am Interesting point, which probably explains the different intepretations of DO, mental v. physical.
Moreover, being sankhata (fabricated) and dependent upon something else is what is central to paticcasamuppada... not mental vs physical. The mental vs physical classification is the Abhidhammic legacy of namas and rupas, retrospectively shoehorned back into paticcasamuppada.
I agree, it's not only a modern, but also an Abhidhammic tendency. But my comment was based on the impression that your interpretation of DO is that it only applies to psychological, mental, stuff, not to physical stuff, like birth (as in making babies), and so seems to be based on a mental/physical duality.

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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 6:15 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:48 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:23 am

Derived form isn’t mental.
So if I'm looking at the ocean, what does "derived form" or "visible form" mean? Is it just light rays, is it colours and shapes moving, or what exactly?
Today we would call it H2O, electromagnetic radiation and baryonic matter.
I don't think so. In the suttas derived form seems equivalent to sense-objects, ie sights, sounds, odours, etc, what we're actually conscious of.
So with the ocean example, it would be a moving image which I recognise as "ocean". Light waves are just an abstraction, like the elements themselves, not directly experienced.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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