sense bases disappear ?

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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:09 am Greetings all, (but especially Alex),

You might be interested in the following, as it relates to what is phenomenal (i.e. sankhara dhamma) and what is not
MN 43 wrote:Venerable, vitality-formations are not experienceable phenomena. Venerable, if vitality-formations were experienceable phenomena, then a monk who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling cannot be seen emerging from that attainment. Venerable, because vitality-formations are one thing and experienceable phenomena are something else, then a monk who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling can be seen emerging from that attainment.”
Contrast with salayatana.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Your phenomenon/noumenon distinction isn't one found in the suttas. It's a product of your Abhidhammic thought. The old Abhidhamma also had a concern of this nature, which is why they collapsed all dhammas into sense phenomena. Furthermore, if the indriya are dependently originated then they are suffering. They would therefore have ignorance as a root condition. Also, please see above where it states that Buddhas and Arahants still experience the saḷāyatana.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

MN 121 also sounds a lot like MN 43

There is only this modicum of stress, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’

“These five faculties depend on what to continue?”
Imāni kho, āvuso, pañcindriyāni kiṁ paṭicca tiṭṭhantī”ti?

“These five faculties depend on life to continue.”
Imāni kho, āvuso, pañcindriyāni āyuṁ paṭicca tiṭṭhantī”ti.
- MN 43
There is only this modicum of stress, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’
imameva kāyaṁ paṭicca saḷāyatanikaṁ jīvitapaccayā’ti.
- MN 121

It looks like they are talking about the same thing. Āyu and jīvita seem to be referring to the same idea, namely life or life-span. Both the Indriya and Āyatana depend upon life. Both are talking about sense experience. All the evidence shows that both of these texts are talking about the same thing, but with slightly different phrasing. Exactly how the Buddha taught.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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AlexBrains92
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:06 am
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:00 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:52 am

If they are thinking in terms of a subject, then they are also thinking in terms of an object. The subject/object distinction then remains for them. When walking around, going for alms or chatting to people they still experience external objects in relation to themselves. They still experience contact, vedana and so dukkha.
You are equating the ordinary person's point of view with the arahant's point of view, as if the arahant's knowledge didn't change their view of reality and experience.
I'm pointing out that if the Arahant still thinks in terms of a subject, then there will also be thoughts regarding objects. I'm also pointing out that according to the earliest texts the only issue with sight is in taking visual objects to be permanent, pleasurable and self or belonging to a self. They never say that thinking an object is there, being experienced, is the problem. They never say the subject/object distinction is the problem. They say craving and clinging is the problem. They say thinking there is some permanent self is the problem.

“How is it, friend Ānanda, is the eye the fetter of forms or are forms the fetter of the eye?… Is the mind the fetter of mental phenomena or are mental phenomena the fetter of the mind?”

“Friend Kāmabhū, the eye is not the fetter of forms nor are forms the fetter of the eye … The mind is not the fetter of mental phenomena nor are mental phenomena the fetter of the mind, but rather the desire and lust that arise there in dependence on both: that is the fetter there.
- SN 35.233
Am I saying that thinking X is the problem, or am I saying that believing that thought is the problem? What really matters is what we believe, and the arahant no more believe the way things appear in his sense experience. Subject and object are just constructions to him, so why keeping saying "there is still contact for him"? He no more believes that contact, he no more identify himself in that contact. Therefore "contact" (as a self-dependent concept) ceases. This is nibbana before death, and it's cool. Parinibbana is cooler, okay. But you seem to devalue nibbana before death. You are describing the arahant as little more than a person who will not be reborn. That's quite reductive.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:28 am
Am I saying that thinking X is the problem, or am I saying that believing that thought is the problem? What really matters is what we believe, and the arahant no more believe the way things appear in his sense experience. Subject and object are just constructions to him, so why keeping saying "there is still contact for him"? He no more believes that contact, he no more identify himself in that contact. Therefore "contact" (as self-dependent concept) ceases. This is nibbana before death, and it's cool. Parinibbana is cooler, okay. But you seem to devalue nibbana before death. You are describing the arahant as little more than a person who will not be reborn. That's quite reductive.
Contact doesn't happen because you believe in it. Contact happens because there is an eye, things to see out there and a consciousness to cognise them. What the Arahant has removed is following the signs of permanence, satisfaction and self. The contact still remains, and indeed it is in relation to this contact that the Arahant now has perfect vision. I mean, the Arahants still have likes and dislikes arising in them because of contact. That couldn't be the case unless they still experienced sense objects in relation to which they have subjective likes and dislikes. As for the Arahant, whilst alive he is fully without fear, anger, grief and so on. He also knows that finally, at death, there is no more pain. That is quite a remarkable "person", yet you seem to think it unsatisfactory.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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retrofuturist
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:15 am Your phenomenon/noumenon distinction isn't one found in the suttas. It's a product of your Abhidhammic thought.
Yet, there's another sutta doing just that. Panc'indriya are not phenomena, salayatana are.
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:15 amThe old Abhidhamma also had a concern of this nature, which is why they collapsed all dhammas into sense phenomena
OK.
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:15 am Furthermore, if the indriya are dependently originated then they are suffering.
They arise in dependence upon something, yes, but they do not arise dependent upon avijja.
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:15 amThey would therefore have ignorance as a root condition
No. That is the cause and condition for all sankhata-dhammas, aka "this entire mass of suffering". Other things have causes and conditions that aren't necessarily "dependently originated things" (sorry, the Pali word escapes me just now and I'm on my phone... I'll pop it in if I find it - UPDATE - paṭiccasamuppanne).

An example of something dependent upon something else that is not sankhata-dhamma...fire!
SN 46.53 wrote:"Suppose a man wants to make a small fire blaze. If he heaps dry grass, dry cow-dung and dry sticks on it, blows on it with his mouth, and does not sprinkle it with dust, can he make that fire blaze?"

"Yes indeed, Lord."
Likewise, a tree is dependent upon soil, water, sun and roots. etc.... not avijja.
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:15 am Also, please see above where it states that Buddhas and Arahants still experience the saḷāyatana.
Where thanks?

UPDATE: Assuming this is MN 121, then I disagree with your interpretation. That is talking about a rarefied meditation state, not cessation, not nibbana. Thus, it's a fabricated state. It's only "with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance" that there is salayatanirodha. An arahant isn't going to ignorantly give rise to them if they do certain meditations.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:31 am
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:28 am
Am I saying that thinking X is the problem, or am I saying that believing that thought is the problem? What really matters is what we believe, and the arahant no more believe the way things appear in his sense experience. Subject and object are just constructions to him, so why keeping saying "there is still contact for him"? He no more believes that contact, he no more identify himself in that contact. Therefore "contact" (as self-dependent concept) ceases. This is nibbana before death, and it's cool. Parinibbana is cooler, okay. But you seem to devalue nibbana before death. You are describing the arahant as little more than a person who will not be reborn. That's quite reductive.
Contact doesn't happen because you believe in it. Contact happens because there is an eye, things to see out there and a consciousness to cognise them. What the Arahant has removed is following the signs of permanence, satisfaction and self. The contact still remains, and indeed it is in relation to this contact that the Arahant now has perfect vision. I mean, the Arahants still have likes and dislikes arising in them because of contact. That couldn't be the case unless they still experienced sense objects in relation to which they have subjective likes and dislikes.
You keep replying as if I'm denying sense experience, and I'm not.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:34 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:31 am
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:28 am
Am I saying that thinking X is the problem, or am I saying that believing that thought is the problem? What really matters is what we believe, and the arahant no more believe the way things appear in his sense experience. Subject and object are just constructions to him, so why keeping saying "there is still contact for him"? He no more believes that contact, he no more identify himself in that contact. Therefore "contact" (as self-dependent concept) ceases. This is nibbana before death, and it's cool. Parinibbana is cooler, okay. But you seem to devalue nibbana before death. You are describing the arahant as little more than a person who will not be reborn. That's quite reductive.
Contact doesn't happen because you believe in it. Contact happens because there is an eye, things to see out there and a consciousness to cognise them. What the Arahant has removed is following the signs of permanence, satisfaction and self. The contact still remains, and indeed it is in relation to this contact that the Arahant now has perfect vision. I mean, the Arahants still have likes and dislikes arising in them because of contact. That couldn't be the case unless they still experienced sense objects in relation to which they have subjective likes and dislikes.
You keep replying as if I'm denying sense experience, and I'm not.
Then the Buddhas and Arahants still experience contact and the six sense bases. They still have the subject/object distinction.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:37 am
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:34 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:31 am

Contact doesn't happen because you believe in it. Contact happens because there is an eye, things to see out there and a consciousness to cognise them. What the Arahant has removed is following the signs of permanence, satisfaction and self. The contact still remains, and indeed it is in relation to this contact that the Arahant now has perfect vision. I mean, the Arahants still have likes and dislikes arising in them because of contact. That couldn't be the case unless they still experienced sense objects in relation to which they have subjective likes and dislikes.
You keep replying as if I'm denying sense experience, and I'm not.
Then the Buddhas and Arahants still experience contact and the six sense bases. They still have the subject/object distinction.
You think that every sense experience has to be called "contact", I don't.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:34 am
Yet, there's another sutta doing just that. Panc'indriya are not phenomena, salayatana are.
Nowhere in the suttas is this stated much less implied. It is entirely the product of your own system.

They arise in dependence upon something, yes, but they do not arise dependent upon avijja... No. That is the cause and condition for all sankhata-dhammas, aka "this entire mass of suffering". Other things have causes and conditions that aren't necessarily "dependently originated things" (sorry, the Pali word escapes me just now and I'm on my phone... I'll pop it in if I find it)... An example of something dependent upon something else that is not sankhata-dhamma...fire!
Since MN 43 and MN 121 are talking about the same thing, they do have ignorance as a root condition. As for fire, your internal fire element did arise dependent upon ignorance. Your experience of trees, through your senses, also arose due to ignorance. External objects are not part of dependent origination. Only what is internal to us is, so this is a slight of hand on your part since the indriya we are talking about are internal to us.

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:15 am Also, please see above where it states that Buddhas and Arahants still experience the saḷāyatana.

Retro wrote: Where thanks?
Here
"They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’

They understand: ‘Here there is no stress due to the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, or ignorance. There is only this modicum of stress, namely that associated with the six sense fields [saḷāyatanikaṁ] dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’ They understand: ‘This field of perception is empty of the perception of the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance. There is only this that is not emptiness, namely that associated with the six sense fields [saḷāyatanikaṁ] dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’ And so they regard it as empty of what is not there, but as to what remains they understand that it is present. That’s how emptiness is born in them—genuine, undistorted, and pure."
https://suttacentral.net/mn121/en/sujat ... ript=latin

I'll repeat my other post too

MN 121 also sounds a lot like MN 43

“These five faculties depend on what to continue?”
Imāni kho, āvuso, pañcindriyāni kiṁ paṭicca tiṭṭhantī”ti?

“These five faculties depend on life to continue.”
Imāni kho, āvuso, pañcindriyāni āyuṁ paṭicca tiṭṭhantī”ti.


- MN 43

There is only this modicum of stress, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’
imameva kāyaṁ paṭicca saḷāyatanikaṁ jīvitapaccayā’ti.

- MN 121

It looks like they are talking about the same thing. Āyu and jīvita seem to be referring to the same idea, namely life or life-span. Both the Indriya and Āyatana depend upon life. Both are talking about sense experience. All the evidence shows that both of these texts are talking about the same thing, but with slightly different phrasing. Exactly how the Buddha taught.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:42 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:37 am
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:34 am
You keep replying as if I'm denying sense experience, and I'm not.
Then the Buddhas and Arahants still experience contact and the six sense bases. They still have the subject/object distinction.
You think that every sense experience has to be called "contact", I don't.
I'm more interested in what the suttas say rather than personal theories. In the suttas sense experience can't happen without contact, be that physical or immaterial.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:47 am In the suttas sense experience can't happen without contact, be that physical or immaterial.
I'm waiting for some references.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:09 am Greetings all, (but especially Alex),

You might be interested in the following, as it relates to what is phenomenal (i.e. sankhara dhamma) and what is not
MN 43 wrote:Venerable, vitality-formations are not experienceable phenomena. Venerable, if vitality-formations were experienceable phenomena, then a monk who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling cannot be seen emerging from that attainment. Venerable, because vitality-formations are one thing and experienceable phenomena are something else, then a monk who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling can be seen emerging from that attainment.”
Contrast with salayatana.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I've just read the pali, and it says that 'ayusankhara' are not 'vedaniya dhamma'. That doesn't mean they are not sankhara dhamma.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 11:24 am MN 121 also sounds a lot like MN 43

There is only this modicum of stress, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’
“These five faculties depend on what to continue?”
Imāni kho, āvuso, pañcindriyāni kiṁ paṭicca tiṭṭhantī”ti?

“These five faculties depend on life to continue.”
Imāni kho, āvuso, pañcindriyāni āyuṁ paṭicca tiṭṭhantī”ti.
- MN 43
There is only this modicum of stress, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’
imameva kāyaṁ paṭicca saḷāyatanikaṁ jīvitapaccayā’ti.
- MN 121

It looks like they are talking about the same thing. Āyu and jīvita seem to be referring to the same idea, namely life or life-span. Both the Indriya and Āyatana depend upon life. Both are talking about sense experience. All the evidence shows that both of these texts are talking about the same thing, but with slightly different phrasing. Exactly how the Buddha taught.
In this case, it does sound like this particular application of saḷāyatanikaṁ is equivalent to pañcindriyāni, but neither are equivalent to the salayatana of paticcasamuppada... so no, it's not all the same.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Pulsar »

Asahi writes in the Opening statement. 
In the dependent arising, the cessation of namarupa comes to cessation of sense bases. How do you understand this, the sense bases disappear right there
Exactly so, right there, but perhaps it is better to say the karma generating activity at the sense bases disappear right there. Arahant can still see and hear, but is not involved with that activity as in "I see", or "I hear". See Malunkyaputta in SN.
You continue 
"Or it means something else. Following that, cessation of contact"
It does not mean anything else. Contact (phassa) has a specific meaning in DO.
Do you understand what that is?
Retro and Alex appear to understand DO, and Asahi appears not to.
I like this thread, this conversation is worth pursuing, simply in order to remove the misunderstanding of many regarding Salayatana. 
Dearest Asahi; can you define Salayatana for the forum? Are you misunderstanding Salayatana?
Best :candle:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:01 pm

Apart from the sutta being inconvenient for you, on what basis do you say the saḷāyatana in MN 121 is not the same as the saḷāyatana in dependent origination?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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