sense bases disappear ?

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cappuccino
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:26 pm The Buddha knew there was no more life to come because he saw the conditionality of life.
not exactly since nirvana is still life
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

“The knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘Unshakable is my liberation of mind; this is my last birth; now there is no more renewed existence.’”

If birth means birth of "I am" how is there a last birth when the Buddha awakened? It would mean there was an "I am" when he awakened, thus meaning he wasn't awakened.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ceisiwr,

Strange argument, given that identification would have happened far more recently prior to awakening, than birth, as defined on the last page by you - even by your own definitions.
Ceisiwr wrote:The sense of "I" comes from clinging, whilst birth in dependent origination is literally being expelled from the vaginal canal (for a human).
Being present tense makes sense because the arahant has literally just let go of asmi-mana (i.e. the "I am" conceit) by virtue of having just broken the eighth fetter.

In contrast, they were "expelled from the vaginal canal" 🙄 decades ago. Further, if they really are thinking of an event that happened decades ago as "mine", then they have not broken the fetter of asmi-mana at all...
Asmi-māna: lit.: 'I am'-conceit, 'ego-conceit', may range from the coarsest pride and self-assertion to a subtle feeling of one's distinctiveness or superiority that persists, as the 8th fetter samyojana, until the attainment of Arahantship or Nobility.

It falsely assumes an entity 'I' the be real and existent. It is based upon the comparison of oneself with others, and may, therefore, manifest itself also as a feeling of inferiority or the claim to be equal see: māna. It has to be distinguished from 'ego-belief' sakkāya-ditthi which implies a definite belief or view ditthi concerning the assumption of a self, personality or soul, and, being the 1st of the mental chains, which disappears at attainment of Stream-Entry sotāpatti. Even when the five lower mental chains have vanished in a Noble Disciple, there is still in him, with regard to the five groups of clinging, a slight remaining measure of the conceit 'I am', of the desire 'I am', of the latent tendency 'I am' see: S. XXII, 89. māna This is the root assumption of Egoism.
Source: Maha Thera Nyanatiloka. Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, Buddhist Publication Society, first edition 1952.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:33 am Greetings Ceisiwr,

Strange argument, given that identification would have happened far more recently prior to awakening, than birth, as defined on the last page by you - even by your own definitions.
Ceisiwr wrote:The sense of "I" comes from clinging, whilst birth in dependent origination is literally being expelled from the vaginal canal (for a human).
Being present tense makes sense because the arahant has literally just let go of asmi-mana (i.e. the "I am" conceit) by virtue of having just broken the eighth fetter.

In contrast, they were "expelled from the vaginal canal" 🙄 decades ago. Further, if they really are thinking of an event that happened decades ago as "mine", then they have not broken the fetter of asmi-mana at all...
Asmi-māna: lit.: 'I am'-conceit, 'ego-conceit', may range from the coarsest pride and self-assertion to a subtle feeling of one's distinctiveness or superiority that persists, as the 8th fetter samyojana, until the attainment of Arahantship or Nobility.

It falsely assumes an entity 'I' the be real and existent. It is based upon the comparison of oneself with others, and may, therefore, manifest itself also as a feeling of inferiority or the claim to be equal see: māna. It has to be distinguished from 'ego-belief' sakkāya-ditthi which implies a definite belief or view ditthi concerning the assumption of a self, personality or soul, and, being the 1st of the mental chains, which disappears at attainment of Stream-Entry sotāpatti. Even when the five lower mental chains have vanished in a Noble Disciple, there is still in him, with regard to the five groups of clinging, a slight remaining measure of the conceit 'I am', of the desire 'I am', of the latent tendency 'I am' see: S. XXII, 89. māna This is the root assumption of Egoism.
Source: Maha Thera Nyanatiloka. Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines, Buddhist Publication Society, first edition 1952.

Metta,
Paul. :)
The Buddha awakens and then says "this is my last birth". According to you birth here is the sense of there being an atta. The implication, according to your view, is that when the Buddha awakened he was still clinging. The alternative reading is that the birth which is his last was the one from his mother's womb. One doesn't have to think in terms of a self to recognise that they were, quite literally, born.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by form »

Sense base disappear is another kind of consciousness. This is why is say it is meaningless to talk about it literally. If want to quote from suttas, those suttas in MN at the end has plenty of it.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ceisiwr,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:41 am The Buddha awakens and then says "this is my last birth".
No. There is no "my" there in the Pali.

A more accurate, less puthujjana-ised translation is... "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.’" (SN 22.76)
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:41 am The implication, according to your view, is that when the Buddha awakened he was still clinging.
Not "when"... "until".

Anyway, as you said in your less dogmatic days...
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:21 pm I don't see much point in trying to arrive at a concrete and objective understanding of the word "Jati", since this word can be understood to represent different things to different people. We could spend the next eternity arguing about it and would never reach consensus.
Have a good weekend.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 12:52 am
No. There is no "my" there in the Pali.
‘akuppā me vimutti; ayamantimā jāti; natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti.

me
dative and genitive sing
to me; my; mine

A more accurate, less puthujjana-ised translation is... "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.’" (SN 22.76)
That it is "puthujana-ised" is an unsubstantiated personal view. Both are also different sentences.

“The knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘Unshakable is my liberation of mind; this is my last birth; now there is no more renewed existence.”
‘akuppā me vimutti; ayamantimā jāti; natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti.
- SN 22.27

They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’
‘Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṁ brahmacariyaṁ, kataṁ karaṇīyaṁ, nāparaṁ itthattāyā’ti pajānāti.
- SN 22.76

Different ways of saying the same thing, but still different.
Not "when"... "until".
We have the Buddha recognising that the āsavā are absent ("‘Unshakable is my liberation of mind"), which is how the Dhamma is known in the here and now, and then he declares this is his last birth. Now, according to you birth = the sense of "I am". Of delusions of a real self. So, according to the text, the Buddha realised the āsavā were absent and then had a sense of "I am". According to your view then, when the Buddha awakened there was a sense of self present. One might even say your view lends itself to the notion that the Buddha awakened to his true self.
Anyway, as you said in your less dogmatic days...
Yes, I was wrong. That's what happens when one grows in the Dhamma. At the beginning, if you are of limited natural wisdom, you make a lot of mistakes.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

"Ñāṇañca pana me dassanaṁ udapādi: 'akuppā me vimutti, ayamantimā jāti, natthi dāni punabbhavo'"ti.
"The knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘Unshakable is the liberation of my mind. This is my last birth. Now there is no more renewed existence.’"

SN 56.11, the Sutta of the Turning of the Dhamma-Wheel.

"Punabbhavo" can alternatively be translated as "rebirth." Birth is the beginning of the existence. The existence is the "bhava." Certainly, bhava doesn't literally mean "birth," but it necessarily implies it, even in modernist Buddhisms that define "birth" as the adoption and/or reification of an identity.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ceisiwr,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:04 am Different ways of saying the same thing, but still different.
Different tracts of text, yes. I was speaking of the standard arahant expression "khīṇā jāti", which contains no "me".

Presumably "conventional" language was needed by the Buddha (as the first of the enlightened ones) to communicate his attainment to an audience of puthujjanas, whereas once others attained arahantship, there was less need to puthujjana-ise the modes of expression, such that they may be understood by others. (Remember how the Buddha's first attempt to relay his achievements with others failed? - See: MN26)

Khīṇā jāti is undeniably a much more accurate and precisely way to represent the meaning and implication of jātinirodha.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

This sounds like Luther wanting to nix the Epistle of James because it contradicts his "by faith alone" theory of salvation. In "Table Talk," Luther claims that a liar wrote it.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:21 am Greetings Ceisiwr,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:04 am Different ways of saying the same thing, but still different.
Different tracts of text, yes. I was speaking of the standard arahant expression "khīṇā jāti", which contains no "me".

Presumably "conventional" language was needed by the Buddha (as the first of the enlightened ones) to communicate his attainment to an audience of puthujjanas, whereas once others attained arahantship, there was less need to puthujjana-ise the modes of expression, such that they may be understood by others. (Remember how the Buddha's first attempt to communicate with his old spiritual friends failed?)

Khīṇā jāti is undeniably a much more accurate and precisely way to represent the meaning and implication of jātinirodha.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I have no issue with the "my" being conventional. I have no issue with the Buddha continuing to think "I am doing x" or even "I dislike x". What I was drawing attention to was the problem of "birth" in your interpretation, based on the sutta. Birth clearly isn't referring to notions of a real self here. It is referring to this life being his last. The Buddha ("he") will no longer suffer rebirth. His birth is now final, because the āsavā are no more.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:21 am Greetings Ceisiwr,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:04 am Different ways of saying the same thing, but still different.
Different tracts of text, yes. I was speaking of the standard arahant expression "khīṇā jāti", which contains no "me".

Presumably "conventional" language was needed by the Buddha (as the first of the enlightened ones) to communicate his attainment to an audience of puthujjanas, whereas once others attained arahantship, there was less need to puthujjana-ise the modes of expression, such that they may be understood by others. (Remember how the Buddha's first attempt to relay his achievements with others failed? - See: MN26)

Khīṇā jāti is undeniably a much more accurate and precisely way to represent the meaning and implication of jātinirodha.

Metta,
Paul. :)
A further point. If "birth" here is conventional, then it means literally being born since that is how "jati" was conventionally understood. That is what a convention is, after all. A shared common meaning. Birth then in dependent origination means literal birth, even if it is a mere Madhyamika concept-only dhamma.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:22 am This sounds like Luther wanting to nix the Epistle of James because it contradicts his "by faith alone" theory of salvation. In "Table Talk," Luther claims that a liar wrote it.
Not at all. As has been pointed out to you already in this topic, the discourses recognise and acknowledge "pure preparations" or "pure fabrications", unaddled by avijja.
Thag 16.1 wrote:"To one who sees as it is,
The arising of pure dhammas
And the sequence of pure preparations,
There is no fear, oh headman."

Suddhaṃ dhammasamuppādaṃ,
suddhaṃ saṅkhārasantatiṃ,
passantassa yathābhūtaṃ,
na bhayaṃ hoti gāmani.
Further, it is also said in the Suttas that the Buddha can express things in conventional language, without being fooled by the language. If I recall which Sutta this is from I will share it.

Update. This from Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "Mirror Of Insight" shall suffice...
The Buddha further discovered that those who attain the end of
craving, ceasing the process of creating a being, don’t go out of existence.
Instead, they’re now so immeasurable that even in this lifetime they
cannot be measured or defined (SN 22:36; SN 22:85). They continue
using the conventions of “I” and “me,” but only as modes of expression,
free from the conceit, “I am.” (SN 1:25; MN 22).
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:34 am Further, it is also said in the Suttas that the Buddha can express things in conventional language, without being fooled by the language. If I recall which Sutta this is from I will share it.
I think you mean DN 9.

"From a cow comes milk, from milk comes curds, from curds come butter, from butter comes ghee, and from ghee comes cream of ghee. And the cream of ghee is said to be the best of these. While it’s milk, it’s not referred to as curds, butter, ghee, or cream of ghee. It’s only referred to as milk. While it’s curd or butter or ghee or cream of ghee, it’s not referred to as anything else, only under its own name. In the same way, while in any one of the three reincarnations, it’s not referred to as the other two, only under its own name. These are the world’s usages, terms, expressions, and descriptions, which the Realized One uses without misapprehending them.”

Interesting to note that this is in reference to a self being reborn.

You might though have in mind MN 74

"A monk whose mind is freed thus, Aggivessana, does not concur with anyone, he does not dispute with anyone. He makes use of the common phrases of the world without adhering to them.”


Once again referring to the self notion.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Another piece of good Buddhavacana:
[...] there is a sense in which you could rightly say that I’m an abortionist, I teach abortion, and I guide my disciples in that way.
(AN 8.12 Sīhasutta as translated by Venerable Sujāto)

He is an abortionist inasmuch as he prevents future births. He is an "anti-natalist," or rather, more correctly, he holds a very distinct form of anti-natalism that is all his own. He doesn't praise even as much as the tiniest bit of existence/bhava in the Pāli scriptures, for instance. He doesn't praise even the slightest amount of birth that begets existence too, unless that's too "logical" for some posters.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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