sense bases disappear ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:27 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:26 am Form will be exterminated, and consciousness always depends upon form. The same for the other aggregates and consciousness.
Annihilationism
“He does not understand as it really is: ‘Form will be exterminated’ … ‘Feeling will be exterminated’ … ‘Perception will be exterminated’ … ‘Volitional formations will be exterminated’ … ‘Consciousness will be exterminated...

“Bhikkhu, though someone might say: ‘Apart from form, apart from feeling, apart from perception, apart from volitional formations, I will make known the coming and going of consciousness, its passing away and rebirth, its growth, increase, and expansion’—that is impossible."
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.55/en/bod ... ight=false

You won't live forever as some supra-godlike being, ever, sorry.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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cappuccino
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:30 am You won't live forever
Being unagitated, he personally attains Nibbāna. He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.

sn22.55
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cappuccino
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Destroy birth


Rather than… destroy yourself
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retrofuturist
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Greetings Ceisiwr,
retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:18 am I think you're under-estimating precisely what the breaking of the eighth fetter entails. It's the complete dissolution of any referrent to which pronouns could refer. Not merely the end of clinging to them.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:24 am The Master still thought "I am hungry" otherwise he could never say "I am hungry".
More precisely, and in keeping with his own instructions...
SN 22.59 wrote:"Therefore, surely, O monks, whatever feeling, past, future or present, internal or external, coarse or fine, low or lofty, far or near, all that feeling must be regarded with proper wisdom, according to reality, thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.'
... he would have thought something closer to "hunger is present". Or as a Burmese Vipassana Traditioner would note "hunger, hunger".

If the Buddha needed to communicate his hunger to others, he would then convert his thoughts to more conventional worldly parlance, per the above suttas, and in keeping with the aforementioned notion of suddhaṃ saṅkhārasantatiṃ.

To think he still actually thought in terms of "I", other than as a means of communication, is to under-estimate the breaking of the eighth fetter. Further, I do not find your rendering of paticcasamuppada to be aligned to SN 22.59... too much has been puthujjana-ised in violation of SN 22.59.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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cappuccino
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:35 am is to under-estimate the breaking of the eighth fetter.
but don’t over estimate
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rekoW
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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mikenz66 wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:01 pm For example, it's hard to classify vedana as a purely mental or a purely physical thing, similar for rupa, which is sometimes quite physical, and sometimes more mental (the forms we perceive with our eyes or our imagination).
So when body of buddha have pain his mind have pain? when body of budhha get cancer his mind get cancer?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:35 am
More precisely, and in keeping with his own instructions...

[SN 22.59: "Therefore, surely, O monks, whatever feeling, past, future or present, internal or external, coarse or fine, low or lofty, far or near, all that feeling must be regarded with proper wisdom, according to reality, thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.'

... he would have thought something closer to "hunger is present". Or as a Burmese Vipassana Traditioner would note "hunger, hunger".
I thought the Burmese were totally corrupt in terms of Dhamma according to you? Regardless, notice that the insight still entails "This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' That is still thinking "I am", it's just without breathing life into the concept. It's using a concept with knowledge rather than with ignorance. It's truly knowing the concept without the āsavā distorting your view of reality.
If the Buddha needed to communicate his hunger to others, he would then convert his thoughts to more conventional worldly parlance, per the above suttas, and in keeping with the aforementioned notion of suddhaṃ saṅkhārasantatiṃ.
So he would think "I am hungry" first, which is normal for a Homo-sapien.
To think he still actually thought in terms of "I", other than as a means of communication, is to under-estimate the breaking of the eighth fetter.
Using concepts isn't an issue. Thinking thoughts of "I am hungry" isn't the problem. Having a very subtle and deep notion that "I am" is a reality is.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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cappuccino
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:44 am This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.
I slightly changed the meaning


this is very subtle
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ceisiwr,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:44 am I thought the Burmese were totally corrupt in terms of Dhamma according to you?
:redherring: :strawman:
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:44 am Regardless, notice that the insight still entails "This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' That is still thinking "I am"
No. It's saying nothing affirmative whatsoever about any "I" or "I am"... it is pure negation.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:44 amSo he would think "I am hungry" first, which is normal for a Homo-sapien.
Thanks for making clear your thoughts. I have explained where the difference is, and why I think you're under-estimating the breaking of the eighth fetter.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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cappuccino wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:46 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:44 am This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.
I slightly changed the meaning


this is very subtle
Your ability to underline certainly is impressive padawan.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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cappuccino
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:48 am Your ability to underline certainly is impressive
Not self is different than no self
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:48 am
No. It's saying nothing affirmative whatsoever about any "I" or "I am"... it is pure negation.
The text literally states they still think "I am". How could anyone communicate without the conventional concept of a self, via mind or speech? What is spoken is also thought.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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retrofuturist
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:50 am The text literally states they still think "I am".
To say something should not be seen as x, does not in any way whatsoever affirm any aspect of x.

Negation does not positively affirm anything.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:50 am How could anyone communicate without the conventional concept of a self, via mind or speech? What is spoken is also thought.
This has already been explained above.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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cappuccino
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:55 am Negation does not positively affirm anything.
Negation and affirmation are equally misguided


Ananda Sutta
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:55 am
To say something should not be seen as x, does not in any way whatsoever affirm x
No, but it does mean said person still thinks thoughts of "I am doing x". Breaking the fetter then is not in never thinking "I am hungry" again in favour of "hunger, hunger". Rather it is in understanding that the concept is empty, yet still being able to use it when needed. To bring this back to the point somewhat, it means a Buddha can still think "I was born" without infusing the thought with atta notions. That there was birth. That I was born, yet birth is empty.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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