sense bases disappear ?

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Spiny Norman
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:52 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:32 pm Is the cessation of sense-bases interpretation a teaching on non-duality? Cessation of the subject-object duality? And is this equivalent to the cessation of "me" and "mine"?
You can find the non dual teachings in Advaita vedanta .
Yes, I know. I'm asking whether Paul's interpretation is similar, or not. The Bahiya Sutta does suggest this.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:59 pm
asahi wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:52 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:32 pm Is the cessation of sense-bases interpretation a teaching on non-duality? Cessation of the subject-object duality? And is this equivalent to the cessation of "me" and "mine"?
You can find the non dual teachings in Advaita vedanta .
Yes, I know. I'm asking whether Paul's interpretation is similar, or not. The Bahiya Sutta does suggest this.
It doesn’t suggest that, nor does SN 35.95 which gives more detail to the practice. For example, if we followed the instructions fully there would still be forms seen by the eye and cognised by consciousness. There is still a subject and an object distinction at play.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Spiny Norman
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:03 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:59 pm
asahi wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:52 pm

You can find the non dual teachings in Advaita vedanta .
Yes, I know. I'm asking whether Paul's interpretation is similar, or not. The Bahiya Sutta does suggest this.
It doesn’t suggest that, nor does SN 35.95 which gives more detail to the practice. For example, if we followed the instructions fully there would still be forms seen by the eye and cognised by consciousness. There is still a subject and an object distinction at play.
Sometimes I "lose myself" by watching ocean waves breaking. I think that's what is being referred to here, the suspension of me and mine.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:12 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:03 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:59 pm

Yes, I know. I'm asking whether Paul's interpretation is similar, or not. The Bahiya Sutta does suggest this.
It doesn’t suggest that, nor does SN 35.95 which gives more detail to the practice. For example, if we followed the instructions fully there would still be forms seen by the eye and cognised by consciousness. There is still a subject and an object distinction at play.
Sometimes I "lose myself" by watching ocean waves breaking. I think that's what is being referred to here, the suspension of me and mine.
Without me and mine there is still a subject vs object distinction in the mind.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Spiny Norman
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:17 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:12 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:03 pm

It doesn’t suggest that, nor does SN 35.95 which gives more detail to the practice. For example, if we followed the instructions fully there would still be forms seen by the eye and cognised by consciousness. There is still a subject and an object distinction at play.
Sometimes I "lose myself" by watching ocean waves breaking. I think that's what is being referred to here, the suspension of me and mine.
Without me and mine there is still a subject vs object distinction in the mind.
Not in my experience.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
PeterC86
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by PeterC86 »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:32 pm Is the cessation of sense-bases interpretation a teaching on non-duality?
No, because non-duality refers to a oneness, which would still be a sense-based interpretation.
Cessation of the subject-object duality?
Ultimately this applies, but it is not interpreted as a oneness, instead it remains unconditioned as a noneness. Conventionally, one still cognizes, but it is just the cognized, a mere convention.
And is this equivalent to the cessation of "me" and "mine"?
Yes, because if there is no interpretation, there is nothing to be interpreted as me or mine.
Sometimes I "lose myself" by watching ocean waves breaking. I think that's what is being referred to here, the suspension of me and mine.
Yes, and this dissolving can be permanent by understanding DO in the way previously discussed.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:29 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:17 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:12 pm

Sometimes I "lose myself" by watching ocean waves breaking. I think that's what is being referred to here, the suspension of me and mine.
Without me and mine there is still a subject vs object distinction in the mind.
Not in my experience.
I doubt you have ever really lost the sense of me & mine, to be frank. If we refer to the Buddha however, it's clear that for him there was still a subject vs object distinction.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

PeterC86 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:04 am
Does this mean that, in a conventional sense, instead of understanding evolution being the workings of nature as to how human life came to be, you propose that human life is based on ignorance, and that our physical bodies somehow got fabricated out of ignorance, thereby denying genetics, metabolism, and all other relevant biological processes? How would this go? Maybe the universe came out of ignorance too? You see the problem of this belief?
I see a problem in your caricature of it, sure. I don't have to start denying evolution or genetics to propose what I am saying, since what I am saying is that consciousness in the womb arises due to past intentions and, furthermore, that our physical form and mentality cannot develop into our body with it's senses and mind without consciousness.
Ignorance is dependently originated, and if this is not understood, a condition for ignorance needs to be found, and if so, one will further dwell in samsara, endlessly pondering about 'kamma'.
The origin of ignorance are the hindrances.

“I say, bhikkhus, that ignorance has a nutriment; it is not without nutriment. And what is the nutriment for ignorance? It should be said: the five hindrances." - AN 10.61
And from what attainment are you elaborating exactly? Your view cannot be verified in the here-and-now, it is a mere belief in Nibbana 'after life', as all dukkha could be explained as 'old kamma'.
What is known immediately is if greed, hatred and delusion are there or not. What is known immediately for the Buddhas and the Arahants is the absence of greed, hatred and delusion. From that knowledge they never suffer mentally again and know that at death the whole pain of existence too comes to an end.
So the problem of your view, besides that it is denying evolution, genetics, metabolism, science, and so forth, is that it proposes ignorance as condition for the entire universe, on top of that it is not verifiable in this lifetime. Which also begs the rethorical question, as to how Buddha could know that, after he exhaled his last breath, that he was released from whatever it was what made him came to be?
Nowhere have I argued that ignorance is the basis for trees, or asteroids. The Buddha knew that his life was the final one, as he knew the conditionality of consciousness. One understands how consciousness get's stuck on and follows signs, and how without following signs consciousness does not become established again. A rebirth-linking consciousness, following signs, does not arise.
So please elaborate how you think that your view applies to reality, and that it is not a ridiculously made-up belief in ignorance as cause of the universe and everything, one religiously clings to, through which one sees life in its entirety as suffering.
Well simply put that isn't my view, bar the part about life being intrinsically suffering.
Alternatively, you can let go of your belief, and get liberated in this lifetime. If one understands DO, one doesn't believe in anything, because nothing can ultimately be known. So, if there is a sign in your mind, anything that could be described as a cause for something, you're not understanding DO.
Your understanding in this area is very, very limited Peter both in terms of the ultimate meaning and of the gradual path towards it.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:24 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:04 amAnd from what attainment are you elaborating exactly? Your view cannot be verified in the here-and-now, it is a mere belief in Nibbana 'after life', as all dukkha could be explained as 'old kamma'.
Any attainment would be better than your fake Āryatva. As for this "here-and-now" nonsense, this is just a way to misrepresent and belittle the Dhamma. Between you and former DooDoot with both of your "here-and-now" polemics and Paul with his misrepresentations of teachings on rebirth as "transmigration theories" and misrepresentations of past lives as "...once upon a time, in a lifetime, far, far away..." the Buddha's Dhamma is sustaining a horrendous attack in this very thread currently.
I think people tend to forget what specific insights the Buddha had during his awakening
“When my concentrated mind was thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the recollection of past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, that is, one birth, two births…as Sutta 4, §27…Thus with their aspects and particulars I recollected my manifold past lives...

“When my concentrated mind was thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the passing away and reappearance of beings…as Sutta 4, §29… Thus with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, I saw beings passing away and reappearing, inferior and superior, fair and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and I understood how beings pass on according to their actions...

“When my concentrated mind was thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of imperfection, malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability, I directed it to knowledge of the destruction of the taints. I directly knew as it actually is: ‘This is suffering’;…‘This is the origin of suffering’;…‘This is the cessation of suffering’;…‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering’;…‘These are the taints’;…‘This is the origin of the taints’;…‘This is the cessation of the taints’;…‘This is the way leading to the cessation of the taints...
https://suttacentral.net/mn36/en/bodhi? ... ight=false
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Jack19990101
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Jack19990101 »

One more thing might be worth mentioning -

Tanha vs Avijja

Like a stick half way buried in the ground. The top half, which exposes under light, it is called Tanha.
The half buried under, no light landing on, it is called Avijja.
The light is Sati.

Tanha and avijja is one and the same - Avijja is Tanha prior to knowledge & vision.

As we train in N8P, more & more avijja will come exposed by Sati.

Albeit, it is of no significance to have used exchangeable, as long as we have clarity.
Spiny Norman
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:29 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:17 pm

Without me and mine there is still a subject vs object distinction in the mind.
Not in my experience.
I doubt you have ever really lost the sense of me & mine, to be frank. If we refer to the Buddha however, it's clear that for him there was still a subject vs object distinction.
Whatever. I prefer the waves to your endless theories.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:20 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:29 pm

Not in my experience.
I doubt you have ever really lost the sense of me & mine, to be frank. If we refer to the Buddha however, it's clear that for him there was still a subject vs object distinction.
Whatever. I prefer the waves to your endless theories.
It's quite the claim, to say you have dropped the sense of self. People making rather large claims for themselves is the norm here these days though I guess.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Jack19990101
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Jack19990101 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:01 pm One more thing might be worth mentioning -

Tanha vs Avijja

Like a stick half way buried in the ground. The top half, which exposes under light, it is called Tanha.
The half buried under, no light landing on, it is called Avijja.
The light is Sati.

Tanha and avijja is one and the same - Avijja is Tanha prior to knowledge & vision.

As we train in N8P, more & more avijja will come exposed by Sati.

Albeit, it is of no significance to have used exchangeable, as long as we have clarity.
12 link View model of Dependent origination, is a circle. It is not linear.
Spiny Norman
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:23 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:20 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:04 pm

I doubt you have ever really lost the sense of me & mine, to be frank. If we refer to the Buddha however, it's clear that for him there was still a subject vs object distinction.
Whatever. I prefer the waves to your endless theories.
It's quite the claim, to say you have dropped the sense of self. People making rather large claims for themselves is the norm here these days though I guess.
I'm not claiming anything. Just suggesting that talking about how we experience things might be more useful than endless sutta references.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Jack19990101 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:01 pm One more thing might be worth mentioning -

Tanha vs Avijja

Like a stick half way buried in the ground. The top half, which exposes under light, it is called Tanha.
The half buried under, no light landing on, it is called Avijja.
The light is Sati.

Tanha and avijja is one and the same - Avijja is Tanha prior to knowledge & vision.

As we train in N8P, more & more avijja will come exposed by Sati.

Albeit, it is of no significance to have used exchangeable, as long as we have clarity.
I wouldn't say they are one in the same. Ignorance is simply a lack of understanding, whilst craving is a strong desire for something. One arises because of the other as condition, but I can't see how they are the same thing.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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