sense bases disappear ?

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Coëmgenu
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Consider: death and aging happen in "Life 3." You are aging and will die in "this life." A naïve understanding would suggest that, according to to 3-lives model, there is no death in this life. That's completely wrong.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:14 pm Greetings,
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:03 pm "This life" is "Life 2." You are experiencing the results of "Life 1" right now. If you are Awakened in this life, there will not be a "Life 3."

You never actually experience what is called "Life 3." Once that's, happening, it's already "this life," which is "Life 2."
This bears no resemblance to the Sutta Pitaka.

This is what happens when people abandon the Suttas in favour of sectarian scholasticism.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Au contraire, your foolish misrepresentations of what you call the 3-lives model bares no similarity to it at all.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
asahi
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:15 pm Au contraire, your foolish misrepresentations of what you call the 3-lives model bares no similarity to it at all.
Their DO interpretation has nothing to do with past lives and life after death and continuation into more future life . Their interpretation of akaliko is timeless however limited to present life only . They leaves out past life which caused the birth of present life with birth of a body which get born into this world due to kamma vipaka . It is all about Psychological experiences . Am i right ? Psychologically there is an "i" get birth , if by luck this "self" somehow get eliminated at present life , there you go , you are liberated , however , if it happens that they are out of luck , dont worry at all , who really ever say anything about future life .
Last edited by asahi on Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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It's been a while since I studied the three-lives model of DO, but I think it goes like this:

Past life:
Avijja
Sankhara

Present life:
Vinnana
Nama-rupa
Ayatana
Phassa
Vedana
Tanha
Upadana
Bhava

Future life:
Jati
Jara-marana
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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asahi wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:48 pm So far there are few new age concepts which runs contrary to the Buddha's teachings , here are the list of modernists invented ideas :

1. Jati is self identity
2. Phassa is contact between self and object
3. DO is all about mental processes
4. Entire mass of stress and suffering is happening in the head
5. DO has nothing to do with rebirth
6. DO has nothing to do with future life
7. DO has nothing to do with or relate to kamma vipaka which occurs in future life
8. Aging , Sickness and Death is the aging , sickness and death of self identity

If there is anything i miss out will update later on .
More accurately, these ideas are contrary to the Visudhimagga interpretation of DO.
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:15 pm Consider: death and aging happen in "Life 3." You are aging and will die in "this life." A naïve understanding would suggest that, according to to 3-lives model, there is no death in this life. That's completely wrong.
So with the 3-lives model, which present-life nidana includes aging and death? Is it bhava?
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asahi
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:44 pm More accurately, these ideas are contrary to the Visudhimagga interpretation of DO.
So you disagrees with Visudhimagga ?
You now think all this modernists are somehow getting it correct after twenty five hundred years + ?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:49 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:15 pm Consider: death and aging happen in "Life 3." You are aging and will die in "this life." A naïve understanding would suggest that, according to to 3-lives model, there is no death in this life. That's completely wrong.
So with the 3-lives model, which present-life nidana includes aging and death? Is it bhava?
My presentation of the Theravādin model is based more or less entirely on an only-passing familiarity with it. It's mostly based on Madhyamaka and Vaibhāṣika Buddhism, i.e. the matrix I mentioned before, which is not exactly the same between the two. It's possible I'm making significant errors in my presentation of the Theravādin view. That being said, I think that the nidānas of aging and death are in this life, just as they were in the past life. While we are being born, aging, dying, we are afflicted, and generating the karma that will lead to rebirth. If there is no Bodhi, any given life is all three lives at once, depending on your frame of reference, as far as I can see.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Spiny Norman
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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asahi wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:58 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:44 pm More accurately, these ideas are contrary to the Visudhimagga interpretation of DO.
So you disagrees with Visudhimagga ?
You now think all this modernists are somehow getting it correct after twenty five hundred years + ?
Ancient commentaries aren't necessarily more "true" than modern ones.

You really need to examine the DO suttas in SN12, and in particular the nidana "definitions' in SN12.2.

From my reading, both ancient and modern interpretations make a lot of assumptions. The general problem, IMO, is that the assumptions are not clearly acknowledged.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:02 pmWhile we are being born, aging, dying, we are afflicted, and generating the karma that will lead to rebirth.
This is the aforementioned karma-duḥkha-kleśa matrix.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

asahi wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:40 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:15 pm Au contraire, your foolish misrepresentations of what you call the 3-lives model bares no similarity to it at all.
Their DO interpretation has nothing to do with past lives and life after death and continuation into more future life . Their interpretation of akaliko is timeless however limited to present life only . They leaves out past life which caused the birth of present life with birth of a body which get born into this world due to kamma vipaka . It is all about Psychological experiences . Am i right ? Psychologically there is an "i" get birth , if by luck this "self" somehow get eliminated at present life , there you go , you are liberated , however , if it happens that they are out of luck , dont worry at all , who really ever say anything about future life .
That is what I would call a "modernist" model of DO. Venerable Puññaji has a different one that is better, but I still think it's wrong, otherwise having general respect for him as a relatively wise man.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:09 pm Ancient commentaries aren't necessarily more "true" than modern ones.
Sure but ponder about this . Maybe you can say , it happens that one is born into this world by fate , somehow you get interested into the practice but by virtue of lucks you have stumbled upon modernists theories , DO doesnt have to talk about past lives , kamma vipaka and rebirth , your brood and misfortune now becomes inconsequential . Thanks Lord .
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:22 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:02 pmWhile we are being born, aging, dying, we are afflicted, and generating the karma that will lead to rebirth.
This is the aforementioned karma-duḥkha-kleśa matrix.
There seem to be different ways of reading the suttas. One is liberation from an infinite cycle of births (reminiscent of "Hinduism"), the other is a more prosaic "pyschological" liberation from suffering.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

The Buddha and the Vedic Rishis had the same goal in mind. From a Buddhist POV, they, the Rishis, were hopelessly mistaken about how to go about it, and also mistaken as to what "it" (i.e. liberation/nibbāna/moksha) was.

Likely DN 1 is about the very tradition of the Vedic Rishis, at least in part.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10164
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:16 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:09 pm Ancient commentaries aren't necessarily more "true" than modern ones.
Sure but ponder about this . Maybe you can say , it happens that one is born into this world by fate , somehow you get interested into the practice but by virtue of lucks you have stumbled upon modernists theories , DO doesnt have to talk about past lives , kamma vipaka and rebirth , your brood and misfortune now becomes inconsequential . Thanks Lord .
Do these different assumptions and beliefs change the way you practice?
If not, the question is moot.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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