sense bases disappear ?

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Sam Vara
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Sam Vara »

PeterC86 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:40 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:16 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:47 pm Hi Samvara,

If you see a blind man walking towards the edge of a cliff, would you tell him that or not?
Ah, is SN 56.42 in your list of approved suttas? If the precipice merely consisted of failing to understand Dependent Origination in the way that you approve, I'd let him decide.
Exactly, so I am saying to you; watch out there is a precipice ahead. Whatever you do with that info is not up to me. In response you can maybe tell me something about 'informed faith', and I would be saying something like "this is irrelevant to me, but maybe it is relevant for others who have 'informed faith'", and I will let you go about your business.
Thanks for the warning. Falling down a precipice is a serious business. Can you say what would actually happen if I did so? If, that is, I thought your view of "enlightenment" was worthy of less consideration than others?
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by PeterC86 »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:55 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:40 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:16 pm
Ah, is SN 56.42 in your list of approved suttas? If the precipice merely consisted of failing to understand Dependent Origination in the way that you approve, I'd let him decide.
Exactly, so I am saying to you; watch out there is a precipice ahead. Whatever you do with that info is not up to me. In response you can maybe tell me something about 'informed faith', and I would be saying something like "this is irrelevant to me, but maybe it is relevant for others who have 'informed faith'", and I will let you go about your business.
Thanks for the warning. Falling down a precipice is a serious business. Can you say what would actually happen if I did so? If, that is, I thought your view of "enlightenment" was worthy of less consideration than others?
You might end up being the pot calling the kettle black. Let's get back to topic.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Sam Vara »

PeterC86 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:51 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:55 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:40 pm

Exactly, so I am saying to you; watch out there is a precipice ahead. Whatever you do with that info is not up to me. In response you can maybe tell me something about 'informed faith', and I would be saying something like "this is irrelevant to me, but maybe it is relevant for others who have 'informed faith'", and I will let you go about your business.
Thanks for the warning. Falling down a precipice is a serious business. Can you say what would actually happen if I did so? If, that is, I thought your view of "enlightenment" was worthy of less consideration than others?
You might end up being the pot calling the kettle black.
That doesn't seem to merit being called a cliff. As I said, your "enlightenment" seems to be nothing more than an intellectual understanding of something you previously struggled with . I guess cliffs are a lot smaller in Holland.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:19 am No, Paul. Your words are fluff to me.
Yet you go on to ask the following question nonetheless. Curious. How do you expect me to respond, other than via the medium of words? :shrug:
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:19 amDo you acknowledge that there is a difference between what you say and what is "pivotal to this Dhamma," or do you think that they are utterly the same and will not accept that they are not?
I acknowledge that the Buddha teaches that which is pivotal to the Dhamma. The Simsapa Sutta says as much. I will therefore accept anything that can reasonably be attributed the Buddha, including SN 12.10, which speaks to the significance of the "causality, dependence and arising" I was speaking about. If you have Sutta that claims the things I discuss are as insignificant as you endeavour to portray them to be, then by all means bring that Sutta forward into the conversation. Until then...

:candle: :buddha1: :candle:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:44 pm Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:19 am No, Paul. Your words are fluff to me.
Yet you go on to ask the following question nonetheless. Curious. How do you expect me to respond, other than via the medium of words? :shrug:
This was your point:
Sutta has been provided that shows the causal factors which contribute to the arising of each, and they are markedly different.
This was my response:
It looks like a fluff objection to me.
This is how you decided to twist my words:
If matters of causality, dependence and arising, which are pivotal to this Dhamma, are mere "fluff" to you, then no wonder you have no idea what I'm saying. I appreciate the honesty, if nothing else.
The specific words that were fluff was the original point. You twisted this up to be about some vague denial of causality, dependence, arising, whatever. No, I said that specific words that you said were fluff. I did not say that causality, etc., was "fluff." Now, to be fair, "every single word you say is fluff" is a valid interpretation of my statement, but one that is not reflected in the context of the original exchange.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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PeterC86 wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:43 am
At some point I started to question this understanding and practice, through which I came to the realisation that such an understanding would mean that consciousness is already there before contact with the sense bases is made. But then the question arises, where is this consciousness coming from, and what is it conscious of without the sense bases? Then also the question arises, where is the intention coming from that is the cause of this consciousness? Then also the question arises as to where is this ignorance coming from that is the cause of this intention preceding consciousness? Then also the question arises as to how can intention precede contact with the sense bases, and what is it intending without any (prior) contact with the sense bases?
Consciousness arises dependent upon the sense bases. One of the sense bases is mental in nature, with mental objects. Intention is an object that a purely mental consciousness cognises. The intention arises due to ignorance, and ignorance is there because of the hindrances.
But then some monk says, "it is a multiple life model", although this is not explained anywhere in the suttapitaka. One might ask, if it is necessary information to understand this interpretation of DO in such a way, would the Buddha had not explained it in at least one sutta?
When suttas are quoted which show you how it does involve more than one life you dismiss them, claiming they are the product of corrupt monks & nuns and whatnot. In other words, when evidence is presented which falsifies your theory you simply dismiss the evidence rather than amend your view.
Nevertheless, lets investigate such an interpretation for a minute. How can life be multiple, if consciousness descends into the womb? The womb first had to be there, so before the first womb was created, somehow ignorance and intention were floating around somewhere, and created physical bodies? I could not find a sensible answer to all these questions, and neither are they provided in the suttas. To the contrary, the suttas just plainly state that transmigration has no beginning, and I should just understand, without any way of understanding it, that;

“Mendicants, transmigration has no known beginning. No first point is found of sentient beings roaming and transmigrating, hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving. What do you think? Which is more: the flow of tears you’ve shed while roaming and transmigrating for such a very long time—weeping and wailing from being united with the unloved and separated from the loved—or the water in the four oceans?”

“As we understand the Buddha’s teaching, the flow of tears we’ve shed while roaming and transmigrating is more than the water in the four oceans.”

“Good, good, mendicants! It’s good that you understand my teaching like this. The flow of tears you’ve shed while roaming and transmigrating is indeed more than the water in the four oceans.https://suttacentral.net/sn15.3/en/suja ... ript=latin
There are multiple lives because consciousness descends in the womb. The womb exists as a part of the mother's body. The ignorance and intention was in a prior life, with a period of an in-between state where consciousness is sustained by purely mental dhammas. Consciousness isn't floating around somewhere. Consciousness isn't anywhere, since it has no spatial coordinates. Spatial coordinates are for physical things, not immaterial dhammas. I wouldn't say consciousness created your body as such, but rather your body wouldn't develop fully without consciousness being there. Regarding the sutta you quote, it does not say that Saṃsāra has no beginning. Rather the sutta says it has no known beginning. An ultimate beginning cannot be found. When the Buddha looked back into his past lives, he saw the same pattern repeating without a known starting point.
The problems in understanding DO as being physical, automatically transmits into problems in the practice of such a view. If human life is understood to be based upon ignorance, which is the cause of dukkha, I see my entire life as dukkha. So far, this is the opposite of cessation of suffering. Now, how am I to dissolve ignorance that preceeds consciousness? Well, the teaching says to practice the N8FP. But if we look at the N8FP, it says that we should focus on our intention and practice virtue, but how should I do this if intention precedes consciousness? Besides this unpracticality, if intentions are not-self, the intention is not me or mine, so I cannot be made or make myself responsible for these intentions.
You are supposed to see your whole life as dukkha. You are supposed to see any life, any form of existence, anywhere, as more of the same albeit with differences of intensity. This is the very beginning of the cessation of suffering, for you begin then to understand how futile it all is and start to become disillusioned with the whole world. What we are supposed to do is awaken so that there are no more lustful, averse or deluded intentions. When we do that, then consciousness won't be established anywhere at death. It will finally cease when the body and the senses go out. Now in the present moment there is consciousness arising and ceasing based on contact. With that contact will be various intentions, wholesome and unwholesome. Certain intentions feed the hindrances, and so block vision, and lead to lower realms. Other intentions starve the hindrances. Simply practice virtue, and the hindrances are weakened but not fully abolished. There will be no awakening, but consciousness can later be established in a wholesome place. Practice virtue, sense-restraint and mastery of the mind with Right View at the forefront and our intentions can lead to starving the hindrances completely, instead nourishing the awakening factors through which the āsavā are abolished and one no longer has defiled intention ever again. Until that moment, you are supposed to view the path and practice with a sense of self. You are supposed to rely upon conceit in order to give up conceit.
So this practice is unpractial because intention precedes consciousness, and I cannot make myself responsible or be made responsible for the outcome of this unpractical practice, I can only discipline myself in the effects from the cause that does not lie in my reach, in the mere hope that future intentions might change, meanwhile suffering my entire life while doing so.
In terms of the 12-links intention precedes the consciousness in the womb, but intention always too arises in the present moment with consciousness. The Buddha covers things from different angles, to help people see the truth. You will of course suffer whilst alive, but you could possible reach Arahantship in this life. Then you would be free from all emotional suffering, of grief, fear or anger. You would still experience the mental and physical pain that comes with life, but there would too be a special kind of bliss for you would know that when your life finally ends you will, then, be totally free from all forms of suffering forever.
Besides the unpracticality of doing so, the answer to the question as to how my intentions should be aligned to dissolve ignorance, is to abandon intentions that are not aligned with dissolving ignorance. The question returns as to where is ignorance coming from? From not understanding the 4NT of course. How do I understand the 4NT? Practice the N8FP...
From the āsavā or, another way of looking at it, from the hindrances.
Then I came to understand DO as a mental process, and all my issues with understanding it dissolved. I came to realize that birth, understood as coming out of the womb, is based upon existence, based upon grasping, based upon craving, based upon feeling, based upon contact, based upon the six sense bases, based upon name and form, based upon consciousness, based upon intentions, based upon ignorance. What ignorance, and where is this ignorance coming from? The ignorance of not realizing that what is understood as birth, is based upon ignorance.
Then you have misunderstood it. The earliest non-schismatic texts are quite clear that rūpa in nāmarūpa is quite literally your physical form, that the body sense sphere is your literally body and that birth, ageing, sickness and death are quite literally being born from the vagina, getting old, growing senile and dying of a stroke. There is no getting away from this. Your presentation then of dependent origination is therefore, I'm sorry to say, your own idiosyncratic distortion of what the Buddha taught simply because you don't really understand it and, apparently, because you don't like what it implies.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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From the section on dependent origination, in Peter's book we find the following claim
• Birth – death
Birth and death should not be seen in a physical sense, because what is dying is only the thought of living.
When we look at how birth, ageing, sickness and death are defined by the Buddha in the earliest texts we find
“And what, bhikkhus, is birth? The birth of the various beings into the various orders of beings, their being born, descent into the womb, production, the manifestation of the aggregates, the obtaining of the sense bases. This is called birth.

“And what, bhikkhus, is aging-and-death? The aging of the various beings in the various orders of beings, their growing old, brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of vitality, degeneration of the faculties: this is called aging. The passing away of the various beings from the various orders of beings, their perishing, breakup, disappearance, mortality, death, completion of time, the breakup of the aggregates, the laying down of the carcass: this is called death. Thus this aging and this death are together called aging-and-death."
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodh ... ight=false

The normal non-esoteric understanding of birth, ageing, sickness and death that everyone has.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Just as earth, water, sun, moon, and stars, come into existence from the seeds of kinetic energy included in material change and were not created by a God, so such beings as men and animals come to successive existences because of the seeds of their past kamma made in previous lives, even in previous world cycles. A view such as this is known as right view (sammā-diṭṭhi).


- The Manual of Insight and the Noble Eightfold Path and Its Factors Explained by Ledi Sayadaw

"A householder or one gone forth, should often reflect thus: ‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do." - AN 5.57
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Greetings Ceisiwr,

You appear amenable to civilized discourse on these matters, so I would like to put a question to you. I could repeat my earlier caveats about gratuitous insertion of words into translations, which serve to "beg the question", but let's skip that for now and go straight to the following, more foundational issue...

Paticcasamuppada is founded upon the logic of idappaccayata.

1. When this is, that is.
2. From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
3. When this isn't, that isn't.
4. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

You like to speak of jati as a once in a lifetime birth, that ceases (and therefore, isn't) as soon as the newborn is expelled from the vagina. (Side question, would you call that time jatinirodha?)

Now, those things listed under "aging-and-death" do not apply to the newly expelled baby. They will happen one day, but they are not simultaneously present. Now, a second after birth (as defined by you), birth isn't. Thus, because birth doesn't persist, they cannot arise in dependence upon birth... only "afterwards, because of" birth.

Therefore, none of the four conditions of idappaccayata can explain the arising of aging-and-death, as there is no fifth condition saying "from the cessation of this comes the arising of that". Your presentations of paticcasamuppada appear to use this fifth alternative logic that frames the paticcasamuppada sequence as "this happens, then this happens, then this happens" but I discern no focus on arising or cessation, let alone dependence, in your presentations. It reads as if you are describing very separate, discrete and non-overlapping events, leaving me to wonder how you account for them via idappaccayata. As it is, your mode of presentation reminds me of the way one snooker ball (event) causes the activation of the next snooker ball (event) via the transference of kinetic energy - with an event occurring because of something prior, but there being no ongoing dependence beyond that.

Image

If you can explain how your presentations of paticcasamuppada are a valid expression of idappaccayata it would be appreciated. Bonus points if you can explain with recourse to sense-bases, mindful that this is the topic.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:17 am ...
The way I see dependent origination, that is to say the way I see Buddha teaching it, is in the following manner. Because of past ignorance, you engaged in wholesome or unwholesome kamma (intentional activity) and because of that, with those dhammas as a past condition, you now have your mentality & physical form with fully developed sense bases. With these sense bases as condition, you experience a wide range of contacts which, due to your mentality, you experience in different ways (pleasurable, disagreeable, neutral). As you are still ignorant you will generate lustful, averse or deluded intentions towards what is desirable, disagreeable or neutral in relation to these experiences. This is the craving. With craving as a condition, there will be clinging and with clinging a sense of self becomes solidified. At death this craving and clinging becomes the basis for existence in the 3 realms, and with existence there will be birth, ageing, sickness and death in different forms. What I then see as birth in dependent origination is literal birth, but the focus in the 12-link scheme is on future birth. The cessation of birth then, in relation to the 12-link scheme, is the cessation of not having to be born again. The ending of birth. When there is no more ignorance in the present, there is no more kamma. With no more kammic activity, birth will never arise again. If, however, you wish to simply talk about the conditionality between birth, ageing, sickness and death then birth, as a physical event, is the necessary condition required for there to be ageing, getting sick and dying. Those things can't happen at all, if one was never born. Birth and death are separated by a great deal of time, for most, but one does occur dependent on the other having come to be. There is a dependent relationship there. In my mind dependent origination has little to do with notions of causality, as commonly or scientifically understood. Birth is a condition for death, but birth doesn't cause death. If birth caused death everyone would die as soon as they were born. I think we can say the same with consciousness and the sense bases. Consciousness doesn't cause the sense bases, nor do the sense bases cause consciousness. Rather they have a dependent relationship. If you start getting into causality between consciousness and matter, you end up in all sorts of philosophical labyrinths.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:16 pm but there would too be a special kind of bliss for you would know that when your life finally ends you will, then, be totally free from all forms of suffering forever.
rather than suffering I would use the word stress


this indicates a stress free condition, also no suffering


but this also does not imply annihilation, it suggests otherwise


you have a state of mind without stress after death
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Greetings Ceisiwr,

So, upon reading that, I see you claiming some sort of ongoing dependence between salayatana and vinnana, but the rest of the nidana appear to follow the snooker ball-esque "that happened, therefore this happens, therefore that will happen" type of logic, outside of the four-pronged logic of idappaccayata.

Is that a fair assessment, or if you think it's unfair (I am certainly not trying to be - you gave me your standard take on paticcasamuppada, but didn't speak much to the idappaccayata of the nidanas), can you more precisely tie it to the four-pronged logic of idappaccayata?

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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cappuccino wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:12 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:16 pm but there would too be a special kind of bliss for you would know that when your life finally ends you will, then, be totally free from all forms of suffering forever.
rather than suffering I would use the word stress


this indicates a stress free condition, also no suffering


but this also does not imply annihilation, it suggests otherwise


you have a state of mind without stress after death
A state of mind is stressful/suffering/unsatisfactory since it is dependent.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:19 am A state of mind is stressful/suffering/unsatisfactory since it is dependent.
except nirvana


the exception and the goal
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:13 am Greetings Ceisiwr,

So, upon reading that, I see you claiming some sort of ongoing dependence between salayatana and vinnana, but the rest of the nidana appear to follow the snooker ball-esque "that happened, therefore this happens, therefore that will happen" type of logic, outside of the four-pronged logic of idappaccayata.
Prior to this life the ignorance and kammic activity involved the sense bases and consciousness. The rebirth-linking consciousness, for me, involves a sense base and consciousness. In the womb consciousness is involved with our proto-sense bases in terms of our name & form, which develop later into the fully formed sense bases which, once again, consciousness is involved with.
“And what, bhikkhus, is the all? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and mental phenomena. This is called the all.

“If anyone, bhikkhus, should speak thus: ‘Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all’—that would be a mere empty boast on his part. If he were questioned he would not be able to reply and, further, he would meet with vexation. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, that would not be within his domain.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.23/en/bod ... ight=false

Contact involves consciousness and the sense bases as does craving, clinging and so on. I don't think the snooker ball comparison is apt, since that is dealing with strict causality. The kinetic energy being transferred between the balls, thus causing them to move, according to physics.
Is that a fair assessment, or if you think it's unfair (I am certainly not trying to be - you gave me your standard take on paṭiccasamuppāda, but didn't speak much to the idappaccayata of the nidanas), can you more precisely tie it to the four-pronged logic of Idappaccayatā?
Well Idappaccayatā is really just a short hand for paṭiccasamuppāda

1. When this is, that is.
2. From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
3. When this isn't, that isn't.
4. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.


1. When ignorance is, kammic activity comes to be.
2. From the arising of ignorance, the arising of kammic activity.
3. When ignorance isn't, there is no kammic activity.
4. From the cessation of ignorance, kammic activity ceases
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:34 am, edited 3 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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