sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ceisiwr,

Yes, I was thinking of MN 74, but DN 9 shall also suffice. Thanks.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:44 am Greetings Ceisiwr,

Yes, I was thinking of MN 74, but DN 9 shall also suffice. Thanks.

Metta,
Paul. :)
You're welcome. It can be irritating to remember a sutta that you want to refer to, yet not have it at hand. How does either make your argument?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:43 am Another piece of good Buddhavacana:
[...] there is a sense in which you could rightly say that I’m an abortionist, I teach abortion, and I guide my disciples in that way.
(AN 8.12 Sīhasutta as translated by Venerable Sujāto)

He is an abortionist inasmuch as he prevents future births. He is an "anti-natalist," or rather, more correctly, he holds a very distinct form of anti-natalism that is all his own. He doesn't praise even as much as the tiniest bit of existence/bhava in the Pāli scriptures, for instance. He doesn't praise even the slightest amount of birth that begets existence too, unless that's too "logical" for some posters.
It's here
328
“Just as, mendicants, even a tiny bit of fecal matter still stinks, so too I don’t approve of even a tiny bit of continued existence, not even as long as a finger-snap.”

329–332
“Just as even a tiny bit of urine, or spit, or pus, or blood still stinks, so too I don’t approve of even a tiny bit of continued existence, not even as long as a finger-snap.”
https://suttacentral.net/an1.316-332/en ... ript=latin
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ceisiwr,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:47 am How does either make your argument?
"He makes use of the common phrases of the world without adhering to them" is the key sentence.

Therefore when explaining things to puthujjanas (and that's what everyone else was at the time of the Buddha's enlightenment), "the common phrases of the world" must be used. When in the company of others who have transcended "the common phrases of the world", there is less need to compromise the meaning via worldly expressions.

The sentence...

"‘akuppā me vimutti; ayamantimā jāti; natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti.

... is compromised by the requirement to communicate via "the common phrases of the world" to puthujjanas, whereas

"khīṇā jāti"

... is not.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:52 am Greetings Ceisiwr,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:47 am How does either make your argument?
"He makes use of the common phrases of the world without adhering to them" is the key sentence.

Therefore when explaining things to puthujjanas (and that's what everyone was at the time of the Buddha's enlightenment), "the common phrases of the world" must be used. When in the company of others who have transcended "the common phrases of the world", there is less need to compromise the meaning via worldly expressions.

The sentence...

"‘akuppā me vimutti; ayamantimā jāti; natthi dāni punabbhavo’”ti.

... is compromised by the requirement to communicate via "the common phrases of the world" to puthujjanas, whereas

"khīṇā jāti"

... is not.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Ok, so according to the common phrases of the world birth means ...? When talking to awakened monks & nuns, he still spoke with convention. The "not adhering" is the clinging, and so superimposing an atta on top of "my birth".
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:53 am Ok, so according to the common phrases of the world birth means ...?
Rather, since the English word "birth" was not known to the Buddha, the correct question is "Ok, so according to the common phrases of the world, jāti means ...?"

And as you well know, in India, "jāti is the term traditionally used to describe a cohesive group of people in India, like a tribe, community, clan, sub-clan, or a religious sect." The term is derived from the Sanskrit jāta, “born” or “brought into existence,” and indicates a form of existence determined by birth."

Thus, as a "common phrase" it is centred around identity, and relates more to the metaphoric concepts of a "high birth" or "low birth", than it does anything to do with vaginas... and more precisely, it pertains to identification, which is how "I" 8-) use the term.
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:53 am When talking to awakened monks, he still spoke with convention. The "not adhering" is the clinging, and so superimposing the atta on top of "my birth".
And with no "atta", there is no "my" anything.

Sabbe dhamma anatta.
SN 22.59 wrote:'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.'
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:01 am
And as you well know, in India, "jāti is the term traditionally used to describe a cohesive group of people in India, like a tribe, community, clan, sub-clan, or a religious sect." The term is derived from the Sanskrit jāta, “born” or “brought into existence,” and indicates a form of existence determined by birth.
As with English, birth can take on different meanings depending on the context. The birth of a nation, and so on. Thankfully though we have a record of what it means in the context of dependent origination. It means the kind of birth that occurs after unprotected sex. Ageing means literally getting old, sickness literally becoming sick in body and mind and death literally gasping for your last breath.
Thus, it is centred around identity, and relates more to the metaphoric concepts of a "high birth" or "low birth", than it does anything to do with vaginas.
It only centres around identity if you cling to it. In other words, if you identify with it.

And with no "atta", there is no "my".
With no "atta" there is only my. Buddhas still think in terms of my birth, just not "my" birth. Birth is still an event, a process, a dhamma that occurred due to conditions. They simply no longer identify with it. Buddhas are never born nor die, but there was birth and death with ageing and sickness in-between (back pain and food poisoning for our Buddha).
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:07 am food poisoning for our Buddha
but nirvana after


where he is now
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Greetings Ceisiwr,

I think you're under-estimating precisely what the breaking of the eighth fetter entails. It's the complete dissolution of any referrent to which pronouns could refer. Not merely the end of clinging to them.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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cappuccino wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:16 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:07 am food poisoning for our Buddha
but nirvana after


where he is now
None of the concepts apply. Existence does not, nor non-existence. Nor even the Jainist concept of neither existent nor non-existent. A stream of dhammas came to it's natural end.

“Here, bhikkhu, the uninstructed worldling becomes frightened over an unfrightening matter. For this is frightening to the uninstructed worldling: ‘It might not be, and it might not be for me; it will not be, and it will not be for me.’ But the instructed noble disciple does not become frightened over an unfrightening matter. For this is not frightening to the noble disciple: ‘It might not be, and it might not be for me; it will not be, and it will not be for me.’ - SN 22.55

If you wish to be close to him then perfect virtue, sense-restraint, mastery of the mind, Jhāna and so knowledge and vision.
“Bhikkhus, even though a bhikkhu might hold on to the hem of my robe and follow close behind me step by step, if he is covetous for objects of desire, strongly passionate, malevolent, corrupt in thought, unmindful, uncomprehending, unconcentrated, of wandering mind and uncontrolled faculties, he is far from me and I am far from him. What is the reason? That bhikkhu does not see Dhamma. Not seeing Dhamma, he does not see me.

“Bhikkhus, even though a bhikkhu might live a hundred leagues away, if he is not covetous for objects of desire, not strongly passionate, not malevolent, uncorrupt in thought, with mindfulness established, clearly comprehending, concentrated, of unified mind and controlled faculties, he is close to me and I am close to him. What is the reason? That bhikkhu sees Dhamma. Seeing Dhamma, he sees me.”

Though closely following behind,
Full of longings and resentment,
See how far away he is—
The desirous one from the desireless,
One unquenched from the quenched,
A greedy one from the one without greed.

But a wise person who by direct knowledge
Has fully understood the Dhamma,
Becomes desireless and tranquil
Like a calm unruffled lake.

See how close he is to him—
A desireless one to the desireless,
One quenched to the quenched,
The greedless one to the one without greed.
https://suttacentral.net/iti92/en/irela ... ight=false

Then, when in the seen there is only the seen, when you know the emptiness of self and other, then you will truly see him for then there is no one to see.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:18 am It's the complete dissolution of any referrent to which pronouns could refer.
mentally yes
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:21 am A stream of dhammas came to it's natural end.
I still say this is annihilationism
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:18 am Greetings Ceisiwr,

I think you're under-estimating precisely what the breaking of the eighth fetter entails. It's the complete dissolution of any referrent to which pronouns could refer. Not merely the end of clinging to them.

Metta,
Paul. :)
The Master still thought "I am hungry" otherwise he could never say "I am hungry". The Master still thought "My father is Śuddhodana", otherwise he could never say "My father is Śuddhodana". When the parts come together we say there is a car, but apart from the parts there is no car.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:23 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:21 am A stream of dhammas came to it's natural end.
I still say this is annihilationism
Form will be exterminated, and consciousness always depends upon form. The same for the other aggregates and consciousness.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:26 am Form will be exterminated, and consciousness always depends upon form. The same for the other aggregates and consciousness.
Annihilationism
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