sense bases disappear ?

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Coëmgenu
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Right view without asavas is only had by those without asavas. That's why it's "without asavas."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by cappuccino »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:51 pm I've already said that Right View with Asavas is right, as far as it goes.
Then rebirth is accepted?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:54 pm Right view without asavas is only had by those without asavas. That's why it's "without asavas."
Is Retro then without the asavas? :reading:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

nirodh27 wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 7:23 pm But you cannot self-deceive yourself if you reduce the suffering immensely, and this reduction is also for laypeople.
Sure but your Path which you practiced are not N8FP . Good luck .
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
cappuccino wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:55 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:51 pm I've already said that Right View with Asavas is right, as far as it goes.
Then rebirth is accepted?
MN 117 is accepted.
“And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; there is right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

“And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? ‘There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.’ This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.

“And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

“One makes an effort for the abandoning of wrong view & for entering into right view: This is one’s right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one’s right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities—right view, right effort, & right mindfulness—run & circle around right view.
Rebirth view is accepted as being "with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]". It is a self-fulfilling view.

The cessation of acquisitions is superior to higher "rebirth". This should be clear to anyone who has made an effort to understand MN 1.

Or MN 2 for that matter...
"Bhikkhus! In one who considers attentively certain factors [which should not be considered], there arises the defilement of sense-pleasure that has not yet arisen, and there also is an increase of the defilement of sense-pleasure that has already arisen; there arises the defilement of hankering after better existence that has not yet arisen, and there also is an increase of the defilement of hankering after better existence that has already arisen; there arises the defilement of ignorance that has not yet arisen, and there also is an increase of the defilement of ignorance that has already arisen. These are the factors which are considered attentively [by an ignorant worldling] though they should not be considered.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:06 pm superior to … "rebirth"
First attain right view
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Right view without asavas is superior because Arhathood is superior to Stream-Entry. The one with right view with no asavas is the one "whose mind is noble, whose mind is without effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path." Anyone who doesn't match these criteria and claims to have right view without asavas is just posing as having right view without effluents.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
cappuccino wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:13 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:06 pm superior to … "rebirth"
First attain right view
Perhaps focus on yours first Vacchagotta.

:alien:

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

So it seems there are many asava-less peoples practicing so called asava-less Path . In thinking with this practice they preferred that can overcome the defilements . However , they went astray from N8FP . They selectively chose only several criteria out of the many which constituted the path factors . Not only that , they somehow twisted the meaning of the Buddha's teachings according to their fondness which is out of four great references . Now i have a much better picture of the theory in which how this asava-less peoples held .
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by cappuccino »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:16 pm Perhaps focus on yours first Vacchagotta.
Not self is a kind of knowledge


I recommend right view before that
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

MN 2 continued as it's relevant beyond merely what was quoted above.
"Because such a person considers attentively the factors which should not be considered and does not consider attentively the factors which should be considered, there arise in him āsavas that have not yet arisen and there increase in him āsavas that have already arisen.

"That person considers improperly thus: 'Did I exist in the past? Did I not exist in the past? Who was I in the past? How was I in the past? In the past, who had been I and who was I [in the subsequent existence]? Will I exist in the future? Will I not exist in the future? Who will I be in the future? How will I be in the future? In the future, having been who, who will I be?'

"Also as regards the present, uncertainty arises in him thus: 'Do I exist? Do I not exist? Who am I? How am I ? From where has this soul come? Where will this soul go?'

"In a person who thus considers improperly there arises one of the six [wrong] views. The view 'I have self' arises in him really and firmly. Or, the view 'I have no self' arises in him really and firmly. Or, the view 'I perceive self through self' arises in him really and firmly. Or, the view 'I perceive non-self through self' arises in him really and firmly. Or, the view 'I perceive self through non-self' arises in him really and firmly. Or, he has the view thus: 'That self of mine speaks, knows and experiences the results of wholesome and unwholesome actions. That self of mine is permanent, stable, durable, incorruptible and will be eternal like all things permanent.'

"Bhikkhus! This wrong view is called a false belief, a jungle of false beliefs, a desert of false beliefs, a thorny spike of false beliefs, an agitation of false beliefs and a fetter of false beliefs. Bhikkhus! The ignorant worldling who is bound up with the fetter of false beliefs cannot escape rebirth, ageing, death, grief, lamentation, pain, distress and despair. I declare that he cannot escape dukkha.

"Bhikkhus! The instructed ariya disciple, who sees the Ariyas, who is skilled in their dhammas and who is trained and disciplined in their dhammas, who sees the Virtuous, who is skilled in their dhammas, and who is trained and disciplined in their dhammas, knows the factors which should be considered attentively and the factors which should not be considered attentively. Discriminating the factors which should be considered attentively from the factors which should not be considered attentively, he does not consider attentively the factors which should not be considered and considers attentively the factors which should be considered.

"Bhikkhus! What are the factors which are not considered attentively as they should not be considered?

"Bhikkhus! In one who considers attentively certain factors [which should not be considered], there arises the defilement of sense-pleasure that has not yet arisen, and there also is an increase of the defilement of sense-pleasure that has already arisen; there arises the defilement of hankering after better existence that has not yet arisen, and there also is an increase of the defilement of hankering after better existence that has already arisen; there arises the defilement of ignorance that has not yet arisen, and there also is an increase of the defilement of ignorance that has already arisen. These are the factors which are not considered attentively [by the ariya disciple] as they should not be considered.

"What are the factors which are considered attentively as they should be considered?

"Bhikkhus! In one who considers attentively certain factors [which should be considered], there does not arise the defilement of sense-pleasure that has not yet arisen, and the defilement of sense-pleasure also that has already arisen is removed; there does not arise the defilement of hankering after better existence that has not yet arisen, and the defilement of hankering after better existence also that has already arisen is removed; there does not arise the defilement of ignorance that has not yet arisen, and the defilement of ignorance also that has already arisen is removed. These are the factors which are considered attentively [by the ariya disciple] as they should be considered.

"Because such a person does not consider attentively the factors which should not be considered and considers attentively the factors which should be considered, there do not arise in him āsavas that have not yet arisen and the āsavas that have already arisen disappear.

"He considers properly: 'This is dukkha; this is the cause of dukkha; this is the cessation of dukkha; this is the practice leading to cessation of dukkha.' In him who thus considers properly, the following three fetters disappear, namely, the illusion of Self, uncertainty and belief in the efficacy of mere rites and rituals. These are called the āsavas which should be removed through vision.
It's up to you whether you "consider attentively the factors which should not be considered" or whether you "consider attentively the factors which should be considered".

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by cappuccino »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:57 pm one of the six wrong views. The view … 'I have no self' arises
See
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
cappuccino wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:50 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:57 pm one of the six wrong views. The view … 'I have no self' arises
See
Yes, and your point being what exactly?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:52 pm Yes, and your point being what exactly?
This wrong view ('I have no self') is called a false belief
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
cappuccino wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:56 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:52 pm Yes, and your point being what exactly?
This wrong view ('I have no self') is called a false belief
Yes. Take it up with those who advance "no self" whilst still having asmi-mana.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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