sense bases disappear ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

PeterC86 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:47 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:10 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:04 pm

All discussion here is based around personal experiences.
I never base my arguments upon my experiences, whatever they are. I make arguments supported by texts my opponent also holds in common with me, as an authority.
Wow.. okay.., so to you the texts are an authority by itself, which do not have to be verified by personal experiences, because what is stated holds truth even if it cannot be verified, because it is written. And anyone who differs from your understanding of these texts is an opponent. At least I understand how you came to your belief, but I am done discussing with you based on this ignoring of personal experience. If you don't verify what you read in your experience, you can come to believe in anything, please take this as a kind offer. All the best to you!
I have no interest in your personal experiences Peter, nor anyone else's really on here. Not in a context such as this at any rate. People can make all sorts of claims on the internet. Arguments based on them are weak at best. Nowhere did I say we aren't to experience the things described in the texts, but as a record of what the Buddha actually taught (which is what we are interested in, rather than your own personal philosophy) until there is direct knowledge then yes, certain things are taken on a faith basis. What I have or have not experienced myself is as irrelevant as your own experiences here, in this conversation, Peter.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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retrofuturist
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Jack19990101 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:29 pm 12 link View model of Dependent origination, is a circle. It is not linear.
Just because you have seen paticcasamuppada visually portrayed via a circle, does not mean that this is to be found in the Suttas. There are no Suttas saying that avijja arises in dependence upon "aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair".

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by mikenz66 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:42 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:39 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:34 pm Personal experiences matter little here.
Therein lies the problem.
Not really. All you get is "my personal experience is x", "oh yeah, well my personal experience is y!" :roll: Shared texts are the common reference point, not personal experiences.
Well, to me, the whole point is how the teachings can help us understand our personal experience, and see through it. That's what I have found really helpful about Ven Nanananda's books and talks - the practical advice. Unfortunately, this practicality often seems to be overlooked in favour of endless analysis and argumentation about details that, to me, seem ultimately unimportant. Trying to reason out what it is going to be like at the point:
"When name and form cease, the six sense fields cease.
nāmarūpanirodhā saḷāyatananirodho"
seems to me to miss the point. I'm definitely not in the "right view means thinking that some particular, detailed, model of dependent origination is right" camp.

:heart:
Mike
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings all,
mikenz66 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:30 pm Well, to me, the whole point is how the teachings can help us understand our personal experience, and see through it.
Agreed, and nicely said Mike.

I don't want to delve too far into this side-conversation other than to say that the Dhamma is described by Venerable Samiddhi of the Blessed One's dispensation in this way...
SN 1.20 wrote:"My friend, I'm not dropping what's visible here-&-now in pursuit of what's subject to time. I'm dropping what's subject to time in pursuit of what's visible here-&-now. For the Blessed One has said that sensual pleasures are subject to time, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks; whereas this Dhamma is visible here-&-now, not subject to time, inviting all to come & see, pertinent, to be known by the wise for themselves."
That doesn't sounds compatible with the notion that the Dhamma is about the past and the future, but clearly such preoccupations have captured the minds of many. The Buddha addresses this propensity in a variety of ways in the Brahmajala Sutta (DN1) in which the Buddha says,
DN 1 wrote:"Now, when those ascetics and brahmins theorize about the past and the future on these sixty-two grounds, it is not possible that they should experience these things without contact. Now, when those ascetics and brahmins theorize about the past and the future on these sixty-two grounds, all of them experience this by repeated contact through the six fields of contact. Their feeling is a condition for craving. Craving is a condition for grasping. Grasping is a condition for existence. Existence is a condition for birth. Birth is a condition for old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress to come to be."
In other words, if we conceive of a self in any manner (even if we sincerely tell ourselves that's not what we're doing) that experiences past and future, or transmigrates to past and future, then by sheer virtue of perceiving that self, we're repeatedly creating phassa, and thereby fuelling paticcasamuppada itself through such wrongness.

Further, regarding speculative theories that aren't "visible here-&-now, not subject to time, inviting all to come & see, pertinent, to be known by the wise for themselves" the Tathagata spoke against that which is takkapariyāhata (i.e. beaten out by argumentation, arrived at by conjecture or reasoning). As ven. Nanananda summarised in Nibbana Sermon 26, "The Tathāgata ... had an insight into the interior mechanism of the six-fold sense-base, which is the factory for producing dogmatic views that are beaten up on the anvil of logic".

Now, with that said, I'll briefly return to Coëmgenu's response to Peter...
PeterC86 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:04 amYour view cannot be verified in the here-and-now, it is a mere belief in Nibbana 'after life', as all dukkha could be explained as 'old kamma'.
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:24 pmAs for this "here-and-now" nonsense, this is just a way to misrepresent and belittle the Dhamma. Between you and former DooDoot with both of your "here-and-now" polemics and Paul with his misrepresentations of teachings on rebirth as "transmigration theories" and misrepresentations of past lives as "...once upon a time, in a lifetime, far, far away..." the Buddha's Dhamma is sustaining a horrendous attack in this very thread currently.
The Buddha's Dhamma is not "sustaining a horrendous attack in this very thread". Traditions of scholastic academia perhaps, but not the Buddha's Dhamma.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Jack19990101
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Dependent origination is the diagnose of the disease.
The cure for the disease is Faith, Samadhi, Sati, Vimutti.

Rather silly to look at the diagnose again and again.
It is a waste of time on cost of fixing the disease.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:33 pm
Jack19990101 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:01 pm One more thing might be worth mentioning -

Tanha vs Avijja

Like a stick half way buried in the ground. The top half, which exposes under light, it is called Tanha.
The half buried under, no light landing on, it is called Avijja.
The light is Sati.

Tanha and avijja is one and the same - Avijja is Tanha prior to knowledge & vision.

As we train in N8P, more & more avijja will come exposed by Sati.

Albeit, it is of no significance to have used exchangeable, as long as we have clarity.
I wouldn't say they are one in the same. Ignorance is simply a lack of understanding, whilst craving is a strong desire for something. One arises because of the other as condition, but I can't see how they are the same thing.
Avijja is a container for craving - a crude way to say.
There is nothing in avijja other than tanha.
Jack19990101
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Jack19990101 »

One either don't know (avijja) or,
once known, it is tanha.

There is no 2nd enemy other than tanha.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Jack19990101 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:55 pm One either don't know (avijja) or,
once known, it is tanha.

There is no 2nd enemy other than tanha.
If there is understanding then there is no more ignorance, just like how light abolishes the darkness. Ignorance is not knowing the 4 Noble Truths, on account of which there is craving for this or that.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Jack19990101
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Actually, avijja does have its unique issue than Tanha -
it is lack of Sati.

I guess, that does make it somehow a bit more difficult to deal.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:45 pm
"My friend, I'm not dropping what's visible here-&-now in pursuit of what's subject to time. I'm dropping what's subject to time in pursuit of what's visible here-&-now. For the Blessed One has said that sensual pleasures are subject to time, of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks; whereas this Dhamma is visible here-&-now, not subject to time, inviting all to come & see, pertinent, to be known by the wise for themselves."

That doesn't sounds compatible with the notion that the Dhamma is about the past and the future, but clearly such preoccupations have captured the minds of many.
The Buddha tells us what he means by “visible here and now” When the asava are present or not is an example. When greed or aversion for things are present or not is another.
In other words, if we conceive of a self (even if we tell ourselves that's not what we're doing) that experiences past and future, or transmigrates to past and future, then by sheer virtue of perceiving that, we're creating phassa, and actually fuelling paticcasamuppada itself through such wrongness.
Who is proposing that, exactly?
Further, regarding speculative theories that aren't "visible here-&-now, not subject to time, inviting all to come & see, pertinent, to be known by the wise for themselves" the Tathagata spoke against that which is takkapariyāhata (i.e. beaten out by argumentation, arrived at by conjecture or reasoning). As ven. Nanananda summarised in Nibbana Sermon 26, "The Tathāgata ... had an insight into the interior mechanism of the six-fold sense-base, which is the factory for producing dogmatic views that are beaten up on the anvil of logic".
Ven. Nanananda’s works are longer than the Visuddhimagga. You too also engage in reasoning and present arguments to make your point. You should also take note that the Rationalists being referred to are ones arguing for the eternalism of the soul. Sure, you can argue against Rationalism too but there goes your noumenon vs phenomenon theory. In other words, you are guilty of what you charge others of.
The Buddha's Dhamma is not "sustaining a horrendous attack in this very thread". Traditions of scholastic academia perhaps, but not the Buddha's Dhamma.
I’m afraid it is, from a myriad of conflicting interpretations of the Dhamma who are only united in their opposition to the standard explanation of dependent origination. Take that away and you would all be bickering amongst yourselves about this or that.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:57 pm
Jack19990101 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:55 pm One either don't know (avijja) or,
once known, it is tanha.

There is no 2nd enemy other than tanha.
If there is understanding then there is no more ignorance, just like how light abolishes the darkness. Ignorance is not knowing the 4 Noble Truths, on account of which there is craving for this or that.
It seems that you took avijja as one item. It is not quite that way yet.
Avijja is like ocean, fish is tanha. Sati is to get fish out ocean.
Gonna do it again again, until ocean is fish free.

There is no solution to abolish avijja in one go (exceptional high mind not included).
We handle tanha one by one, again & again....
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Jack19990101 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:10 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:57 pm
Jack19990101 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:55 pm One either don't know (avijja) or,
once known, it is tanha.

There is no 2nd enemy other than tanha.
If there is understanding then there is no more ignorance, just like how light abolishes the darkness. Ignorance is not knowing the 4 Noble Truths, on account of which there is craving for this or that.
It seems that you took avijja as one item. It is not quite that way yet.
Avijja is like ocean, fish is tanha. Sati is to get fish out ocean.
Gonna do it again again, until ocean is fish free.

There is no solution to abolish avijja in one go (exceptional high mind not included).
We handle tanha one by one, again & again....
Well, I’m not getting into the gradual vs sudden insight debate here.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Spiny,
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:32 pm Is the cessation of sense-bases interpretation a teaching on non-duality? Cessation of the subject-object duality?
It is cessation of the fabrication of an "internal" subject and "external" object duality, yes.

You could call this non-duality, but the use of that word would likely cause detractors to mention Advaita, Hinduism or Mahayana etc. in order dismiss your perpsectives out of hand. If it must be regarded by that term, non-duality should not be regarded as a oneness either, rather...
MN 122 wrote:As he stays keeping track of arising & passing away with regard to these five clinging-aggregates, he abandons any conceit that 'I am' with regard to these five clinging-aggregates. This being the case, he discerns, 'I have abandoned any conceit that "I am" with regard to these five clinging-aggregates.' In this way he is alert there. These qualities, Ananda, are exclusively skillful in their grounding, noble, transcendent, inaccessible to the Evil One.
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:32 pm And is this equivalent to the cessation of "me" and "mine"?
Yes.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ceisiwr,
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:09 pm Who is proposing that, exactly?
The Buddha in DN1, as quoted above.
DN 1 wrote:"Now, when those ascetics and brahmins theorize about the past and the future on these sixty-two grounds, it is not possible that they should experience these things without contact. Now, when those ascetics and brahmins theorize about the past and the future on these sixty-two grounds, all of them experience this by repeated contact through the six fields of contact. Their feeling is a condition for craving. Craving is a condition for grasping. Grasping is a condition for existence. Existence is a condition for birth. Birth is a condition for old age and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress to come to be."
retrofuturist wrote:The Buddha's Dhamma is not "sustaining a horrendous attack in this very thread". Traditions of scholastic academia perhaps, but not the Buddha's Dhamma.
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:09 pm I’m afraid it is, from a myriad of conflicting interpretations of the Dhamma who are only united in their opposition to the standard explanation of dependent origination.
As I alluded to, "the standard explanation of dependent origination" is derived from the "traditions of scholastic academia". That you conflate it as being one and the same as the Buddha's Dhamma speaks volumes.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by pegembara »

Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch, mind objects can be observed to arise and cease. Both the observer and the observed can be observed! They are dependently co-arisen.

So what’s left if both are no more?
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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