Reborn as a god

[Inedible]

"Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."

I really wish people wouldn't say that. There are stars in every direction already. You can say you are already among the stars without having to die alone in a vacuum.

[Joe.c]

I am not sure if sustaining Jhana is the answer. AN 3.76 have the same description in relation to the sensual, form and formless properties:

I’m not asking you to sustain jhana at the beginning. This is the mistake that is made by most Buddhist nowadays, practice meditation without knowing the path (aka blindly follow). There is no way one can reach jhana without good morality and right view.

I said practice 5 precepts in daily life. Don’t get to attach to the 5 senses experiences especially human world concepts: sex, money, family, birth, work, house, car etc. Just use them as needed, don’t over pursue them (getting more etc).

kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture.

Kamma vipaka is difficult to understand. In fact, one doesn’t need to understand them to be on the path. The past kamma has been done, nothing can be changed. But current and future are under your control, so act peacefully such as maintain 5 precepts.

Keeping 5 percepts, one can experience less dukkha as well. This has been explained by Buddha many time. Although it is incomplete with just precepts, but necessary to progress further.

The difficulty in understanding this is that kamma would not be the field in the form and the formless properties. Maybe the difference between an Ariya and a god is the very understanding of this. The Ariyas dwelling in higher realms do not seem to be sustained by craving.

When ariya goes to rupa/arupa world, they won’t comeback again. They have reached non returner status. This needs to be confirmed in human world first of course.

But Ariya that reach only god of sensual realm, they will come back to human world. Typically they know this, so one just relax at god world waiting for time to cultivate again when he/she is back to human world.

This is the reason why Buddha said practice jhana to his disciple especially one who has the quality to penetrate higher. Once one become non returner, there is no need to suffer in sensual realm (aka Mara world).

But not everyone is at this jhana level. Not easy to maintain jhana in daily life if you doesn’t have the basic from previous life or someone who is an expert in jhana, teach you extensively. Especially now without Buddha.

Gods does not suffer, hence the human realm is said to be a perfect place to be taught the dhamma.

Fake news. In Sutta, Buddha also taught a deva to be a stream enterer such as Sakka, and the 4 great kings. But it is all depends on your determination. Actually go to deva world might have a bigger chance to hear true dhamma, because life in god world is longer than human world, so it is possible to see a god who is noble.

But human life is short, one small mistake may land you in lower realm. Landing in lower realm can be very long, it is difficult to get above from there.

So human world is a double edge sword.

Btw, don’t think go to heaven/god world is easy. It is not easy. Most human end up in lower realm due to small mistake.

Some manage to get to 4 great king god world and rarely above of that.

The ambiguity of meaning continues as to the meaning of the five precepts. It is not only money that are is transcended among gods and ariya, but all the underlying concepts to be conveyed through the five precepts: life, sex, money, mind and truth. These are the shadows of a consciousness held hostage to the lights of Mara. In fact, human tractability is contingent on those.

Just simplify your thinking. Do something that make you happy and also didn’t cause other people to suffer. By doing good for you and good for others, you will experience happiness here and now. Don’t get to attach to your 5 senses experiences such as life, sex, money, family, etc.

This is why 5 precepts are being observed. These precepts are used to train the body to be peaceful hence leading the mind to be peaceful as well. By then one can train real meditation (jhana).

Btw, don’t think maintain 5 precepts in daily life (24/7) is easy. It is not easy. Try and see.

Good luck.

[Bundokji]

"Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."

I really wish people wouldn't say that. There are stars in every direction already. You can say you are already among the stars without having to die alone in a vacuum.

I think the solar system model enables for acknowledging one god to be most influential within a certain sphere (sun centeredness), and a spectrum of variations (the moon). The Buddha's enlightenment and parinibbana are associated with the full moon, while the Buddhist calendar is said to be lunisolar. For the full moon phenomena to be possible, the earth should have no reflections/shadows on the moon - allowing for direct contact with the source of light. Earth symbolizes the law of nature where beings devour each other (samsara) creating a continuum (the cyclic existence), while the Arahant's association with the full moon seems to symbolize non-return to such state of affairs.

I find it quite interesting how humans have always looked for order using other planets and stars. A couple of months ago, i had a conversation with a Christian theologian. He told me that the Christian calendar is sun centered, and that religions that are based on the moon are engaged in occultism.

If we look at the rituals of each, monotheists dedicate their sacrifices to the one god they believe in, and their interpretations of tragedies in the human realm is still based on some kind of misbehaving that angered the all powerful god (or the underlying fixed principle). Polytheists would interpret phenomena in terms of interactions between the different gods/forces that influence us here on earth, Wars between nations can be explained through allegiances to different gods who happen to disagree, where the earthly existence is merely a reflection of what happens out there in higher realms. New variations can always come about, such as aliens and all the rest of it.

What is also strange and not less fascinating is that the human concept of time is inseparable from the outer space. Watchmakers go out of their ways to fabricate complications that resembles the movements of other planets. It is also said that most of our modern technology can be traced on our curiosity about space including the space race between the US and the USSR. An interesting image emerged during the COVID saga, that of a NASA team celebrating and doing high-fives in jubilation over what they perceived as a new breakthrough, while wearing masks in the process This makes one feel that we are nothing but sophisticated apes.

[Ontheway]

Just sharing...

To become Brahma, need to fulfill meditation on Metta, Karuna, Mudita and Upekkha. Or Metta at least.

To become Deva of your own choice, need to have Hiri & Ottappa, and five factors: Saddha, Sila, Suta, Caga, and Pañña.

To become a certain figurehead, like Sakka the King of Gods, need to fulfill many good qualities like the five factors, and then also take up the seven vows to practice them, just like how Magha the youth did.

[Bundokji]

Just sharing...

To become Brahma, need to fulfill meditation on Metta, Karuna, Mudita and Upekkha. Or Metta at least.

To become Deva of your own choice, need to have Hiri & Ottappa, and five factors: Saddha, Sila, Suta, Caga, and Pañña.

To become a certain figurehead, like Sakka the King of Gods, need to fulfill many good qualities like the five factors, and then also take up the seven vows to practice them, just like how Magha the youth did.

If i may reflect on your input, i think monastics and ascetics are more capable of practicing the brahmaviharas correctly due to renouncing the family and the boundless nature of the practice, whereas to be reborn as a deva in a sensual heaven is focused on family life. For example, catumaharajika devas and tavatimsa devas have human rebirth as their supply line for their war with the asuras, hence they check if people are being grateful to their parents. Having an eternalists views (in the form of believing in rebirth) seems also to be another requirement as per DN23 where Venerable Kassapa went out of his way to dissuade Pāyāsi from nihilistic views. The same sutta also puts emphasis on the correct practice of generosity to ensure higher rebirth in a sensual heaven.

The third seems relevant to doctrinal differences between Buddhist sects, and has to do with governance. It has to do with the Bodhisatta, Maha Brahama and how the universe is governed. There are three contenders of who Maha Brahama is: Sakka, Baka and Sahampati. I would not be surprised if these form the basis for Mahayanists to claim that the goal for spiritual life is not to become an arahant, but a Buddha. From that perspective, Theravada cause you to be reborn in a sensual heaven (initiation of some sort) where practicing Bodhisatta compassion leads to further conversions in higher realms before the final birth as a human. The relationship with governance has to do with the prophecy: either cakkavatti or self awakened Buddha.

[Ontheway]

Just sharing...

To become Brahma, need to fulfill meditation on Metta, Karuna, Mudita and Upekkha. Or Metta at least.

To become Deva of your own choice, need to have Hiri & Ottappa, and five factors: Saddha, Sila, Suta, Caga, and Pañña.

To become a certain figurehead, like Sakka the King of Gods, need to fulfill many good qualities like the five factors, and then also take up the seven vows to practice them, just like how Magha the youth did.

If i may reflect on your input, i think monastics and ascetics are more capable of practicing the brahmaviharas correctly due to renouncing the family and the boundless nature of the practice, whereas to be reborn as a deva in a sensual heaven is focused on family life. For example, catumaharajika devas and tavatimsa devas have human rebirth as their supply line for their war with the asuras, hence they check if people are being grateful to their parents. Having an eternalists views (in the form of believing in rebirth) seems also to be another requirement as per DN23 where Venerable Kassapa went out of his way to dissuade Pāyāsi from nihilistic views. The same sutta also puts emphasis on the correct practice of generosity to ensure higher rebirth in a sensual heaven.

The third seems relevant to doctrinal differences between Buddhist sects, and has to do with governance. It has to do with the Bodhisatta, Maha Brahama and how the universe is governed. There are three contenders of who Maha Brahama is: Sakka, Baka and Sahampati. I would not be surprised if these form the basis for Mahayanists to claim that the goal for spiritual life is not to become an arahant, but a Buddha. From that perspective, Theravada cause you to be reborn in a sensual heaven (initiation of some sort) where practicing Bodhisatta compassion leads to further conversions in higher realms before the final birth as a human. The relationship with governance has to do with the prophecy: either cakkavatti or self awakened Buddha.

I am not sure what you try to indicate here...

Be assured that Buddha's teachings as recorded in Theravada is putting Nibbāna as the final goal.

The route of reborn into certain god or Brahma, though is wholesome, is not a way of stopping suffering. And such rebirth is never be a true aim of Buddhasasana.

However, as a layman, we ought not to despise such aspiration to reborn as certain god or Brahma. To gain such a status is a difficult task. And it is a meritorious journey and involved a lot of meritorious deeds. With Right Views or successfully attained Sotapannahood, I don't see any danger in such aspiration. Just like how King Bimbisara died and then born as Janavasabha Devaputta.

[Bundokji]

I am not sure what you try to indicate here...

Be assured that Buddha's teachings as recorded in Theravada is putting Nibbāna as the final goal.

The route of reborn into certain god or Brahma, though is wholesome, is not a way of stopping suffering. And such rebirth is never be a true aim of Buddhasasana.

However, as a layman, we ought not to despise such aspiration to reborn as certain god or Brahma. To gain such a status is a difficult task. And it is a meritorious journey and involved a lot of meritorious deeds. With Right Views or successfully attained Sotapannahood, I don't see any danger in such aspiration. Just like how King Bimbisara died and then born as Janavasabha Devaputta.

I had the continuum of buddhasasanas in mind, and how the concept of "Maha Brahma" can be relevant to the engagement of the Buddha with Brahmanism, and the act of conversions in Buddhist cosmology which is not limited to the human realm, but extended to higher realms as well. Sakka was not an ordinary deva, but a leader with high level of autonomy as presented. He is portrayed as both just and yet deluded before his conversion, which Ven. Maha Moggalana had to use his toe to shake his palace. Then we have Baka, who believes to be the highest and had to be reminded by the Buddha also through the use of psychic powers. Then we have the regularities of the Buddhas receiving requests from Brahma Sahampati (or whoever happens to occupy his position in this universal hierarchy). All of that coincides with the prophecy of the Buddha's birth, entering the womb knowingly and the choice of being cakkavatti or a self-enlightend Buddha.

The above should not take away from the legitimacy or magnificence of rebirth in higher realms. It might present though why rebirth in higher realm is not the ultimate goal or the final liberation.

[Joe.c]

Reborn as a god is a secondary result if one can’t have penetrative higher wisdom. It is not the main objective in Buddha teaching.

If your main objective is to go to heaven, then something wrong with your views.

O btw, make sure you become a god here and now, don’t wait till you are death to find out. It will be too late to change course.

Also, The main objective is ending of dukkha(s).

[wenjaforever]

Stream entry, courage and honesty.

[Ontheway]

Joe said

Reborn as a god is a secondary result if one can’t have penetrative higher wisdom. It is not the main objective in Buddha teaching.

After I done sutta recitation and meditation session, I just made an aspiration to attain Sotapannahood in this very life, and to reborn as a Deva in Tavatimsa Heaven after death...

"...when my body breaks up, after death, I would be reborn in the company of the Gods of Tavatimsa!"

I think now it's time to work on the development of Hiri and Ottappa, Saddha, Sila, Suta, Caga and Pañña.

[confusedlayman]

I echo ceiling post on the topic - virtue as deva, right view as noblility.

But I notice a minor details in OP that might imply Nibbana as extinction.
In my view - nibbana is very much not extinction.

Let's first clarify what Buddha has said about nibbana -
Extinction of possibility of dukkha. That is the whole N8F aiming for.
But does that mean extinction of other possibilities other than topic of dukkha?
not really. Buddha, instead of saying, it is empty.

We all know, great bliss is nibbana.
Slightly below nibbana's purity, it is 4 Brahma viharas. Are those gonna be ceased as Dukkha?
We all know, it is not true. As arahant is full of love, compassion, mudita & equanimity.
Those are Great Bliss's reflection upon human mind. That is the limit an impure mind can understand Great Bliss.

It is not nibbana itself is only Great Bliss, Silence, Deathless. Those are barely the limitation a mind is able to phantom about nibbana. Beyond that, a mind could neither imagine nor accept.

Buddha said N8F merely a tiny portion out of his vast knowledge. Although I am limited by impurity to think beyond Deathless, but I am more inclined Nibbana is empty with all sort of potentials except potential of dukkha.

Or extinction of potential of dukkha, can't be all there is. Language is already a limiting factor, right here.

parinibbana is extinction of all experience

[whynotme]

The realm of deities is just the projection of the mind, like virtual reality.

It's said there are palaces made by gold, but then how do you know if it's really gold or not just by looking at it. Because it's just a projection.

Gold is a material concept, an image of gold is not gold, a picture of gold is not gold, but if you enjoy the fake image of gold as gold then you can enjoy the realm of deity. Or you can picture all the image of gold in the world and pretend you are rich.

That why even the spirits in their goodness and honest want ppl to live in their world, but for ppl who really understand it, the whole spiritual world is just a replay of kammic memory, and faked. It's all real in subjective senses, it can be seen, can be heard, can be touched... but it's just the projection of the mind. No where scientists can found large artificial structures in the sky or in nearby planets, that is the proof the spiritual realm of deity is just mind made. So what is the demand in it?

The deities is like a tv screen it can play back what were recorded, aka thier kamma be it good or bad. They can replay it for a very long time, but it's still replaying even the luxury of their lives. The human on the other hand like a camera, it can change what will be recorded by changing the direction of camera pointing.

Imagine the world of everday when ppl live they record the world surrounding. Then at night they dreaming, what they recorded is now projected. That's why the world of dream is just a playback of what is stored in memory. If you do good then you dream good, or vice versa. Because the spirits lack the recording mechanism aka a material body they can only live in replaying mode. Some replay modes may be better imagined than others but it is still replaying mode.

And while waiting for god mode but not assured, you are wasting several decades of your human life. Better striving for god mode here and now rather than god mode after old, sick, pain and breathless.

[confusedlayman]

The realm of deities is just the projection of the mind, like virtual reality.

It's said there are palaces made by gold, but then how do you know if it's really gold or not just by looking at it. Because it's just a projection.

Gold is a material concept, an image of gold is not gold, a picture of gold is not gold, but if you enjoy the fake image of gold as gold then you can enjoy the realm of deity. Or you can picture all the image of gold in the world and pretend you are rich.

That why even the spirits in their goodness and honest want ppl to live in their world, but for ppl who really understand it, the whole spiritual world is just a replay of kammic memory, and faked. It's all real in subjective senses, it can be seen, can be heard, can be touched... but it's just the projection of the mind. No where scientists can found large artificial structures in the sky or in nearby planets, that is the proof the spiritual realm of deity is just mind made. So what is the demand in it?

The deities is like a tv screen it can play back what were recorded, aka thier kamma be it good or bad. They can replay it for a very long time, but it's still replaying even the luxury of their lives. The human on the other hand like a camera, it can change what will be recorded by changing the direction of camera pointing.

Imagine the world of everday when ppl live they record the world surrounding. Then at night they dreaming, what they recorded is now projected. That's why the world of dream is just a playback of what is stored in memory. If you do good then you dream good, or vice versa. Because the spirits lack the recording mechanism aka a material body they can only live in replaying mode. Some replay modes may be better imagined than others but it is still replaying mode.

And while waiting for god mode but not assured, you are wasting several decades of your human life. Better striving for god mode here and now rather than god mode after old, sick, pain and breathless.

sutta says different things. Its not a mind projection. if its mind projection, how did dieties visit buddha ? buddha was living in real world like us.

[mjaviem]

...
parinibbana is extinction of all experience

This is the definition of Nibbana.

Parinibbana is how people refer to a body full of vitality that stopped moving forever. They see such body as belonging to an Arahant and say "This Arahant has finally entered parinibbana"

[Ontheway]

whynotme said

The realm of deities is just the projection of the mind, like virtual reality.

Mhmm, what the scriptures taught is rather different. Those divine beings are very real and living to me.

One example:

SN 6.9

At Sāvatthi. Now on that occasion the monk Kokālika was sick, in pain, and gravely ill. Then, when the night was ending, the independent brahma Tudu, of stunning beauty, lighting the entire Jeta’s garden, went to the monk Kokālika. Having gone, he stood in the air and said to the monk Kokālika: “Place confidence in Sāriputta and Moggallāna, Kokālika. Sāriputta and Moggallāna are well behaved.”

“Who are you, friend?”

“I am the independent brahma Tudu.”

“Didn’t the Blessed One declare you to be a non-returner, friend? Then why have you come back here? See what wrong deed you did.”

Brahma Tudu:

“When a fool takes birth, he has an axe inside his mouth with which the fool cuts himself when speaking harsh words.

“He who praises a person deserving criticism, or criticises a person deserving praise, collects lots of demerit with his mouth. Because of that evil deed, he will never find happiness.

“Insignificant is the unlucky throw at dice that brings the loss of all wealth, including oneself. Worse by far is this unlucky throw of giving rise to hatred toward Liberated Ones.

“The insulter of noble ones, having done evil with speech and mind goes to hell. There he has to suffer for a hundred thousand Nirabbudas and thirty-six more and five Abbudās.”