Reborn as a god

[Bundokji]

Friends,

The Buddha is described as the teacher of gods and humans. In the teachings, the noble sangha is destined for extinction while gods are still subject to rebirth. The concept of "in this very life" implies that conversions to nobility or to a higher realm can happen before biological death. The post-mortem perspective indicates that the converted might take a more refined body after the biological death of the human body. We are also taught that human life is advantageous to become noble, hence being converted to a god has its associated risks. While those who attain higher states can consider this life as a success, it comes at the expense of using this life to break the cycle of death and rebirth and begin the process of extinction.

Are there any teachings that highlight what kind of practices that leads to nobility and what kind of practices that leads to god? How to minimize the risk of being converted to a god and maximize being converted to ariya in light of right effort?

[cappuccino]

"Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."

[Jhana4]

"Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."

The best advice.

[2600htz]

Hi:

The path to gods is morality, believing in kamma and the efficacy of deeds, respect to mother and father, being a giver of gifts and good, not having wicked views, being mindful, etc.

The path to becoming a noble would be practicing what only buddhas or a follower of the buddha can teach (4 noble truths, undertanding dependent origination, the 3 marks of existence).

If you want to look for a formula in suttas you can search the ones where people asked the buddha for advice to be reborn as a deva, he explains that, but if he saw their minds where ready for more he would go deeper.

Regards

[Jack19990101]

I echo ceiling post on the topic - virtue as deva, right view as noblility.

But I notice a minor details in OP that might imply Nibbana as extinction.
In my view - nibbana is very much not extinction.

Let's first clarify what Buddha has said about nibbana -
Extinction of possibility of dukkha. That is the whole N8F aiming for.
But does that mean extinction of other possibilities other than topic of dukkha?
not really. Buddha, instead of saying, it is empty.

We all know, great bliss is nibbana.
Slightly below nibbana's purity, it is 4 Brahma viharas. Are those gonna be ceased as Dukkha?
We all know, it is not true. As arahant is full of love, compassion, mudita & equanimity.
Those are Great Bliss's reflection upon human mind. That is the limit an impure mind can understand Great Bliss.

It is not nibbana itself is only Great Bliss, Silence, Deathless. Those are barely the limitation a mind is able to phantom about nibbana. Beyond that, a mind could neither imagine nor accept.

Buddha said N8F merely a tiny portion out of his vast knowledge. Although I am limited by impurity to think beyond Deathless, but I am more inclined Nibbana is empty with all sort of potentials except potential of dukkha.

Or extinction of potential of dukkha, can't be all there is. Language is already a limiting factor, right here.

[Bundokji]

Hi:

The path to gods is morality, believing in kamma and the efficacy of deeds, respect to mother and father, being a giver of gifts and good, not having wicked views, being mindful, etc.

The path to becoming a noble would be practicing what only buddhas or a follower of the buddha can teach (4 noble truths, undertanding dependent origination, the 3 marks of existence).

If you want to look for a formula in suttas you can search the ones where people asked the buddha for advice to be reborn as a deva, he explains that, but if he saw their minds where ready for more he would go deeper.

Regards

Thank you for your answer. There are different types of gods it seems: the devas of the sensual realm who still reside within the boundaries of the 4 elements of nature. The path to those is definitely the path of morality, or mundane right view as per MN117. The Jhanas in those realms resemble sensual pleasure. The humans and devas in this realm believe Maha Brahma to be the creator god.

Going higher into rupa loka, i am not sure where nobility begins. If we use the samyojanas as indicator, a sotapanna must reside higher than Maha Brahma considering that sotapannas break away from the second fetter of vicikicchā and the Maha Brahma's confusion about the superiority of the Lord Buddha. We know that Arahants & Anāgāmis dwell in the fourth Rupa Jhana, but what distinguishes them from other gods there is not clear.

Going back down to kamma loka, the Abrahamic traditions seem to give an accurate account of the hierarchy there. In the story of creation, the dispute between Mara and Maha Brahma was about the superiority of the fire element over the earth element. The human decedent from heaven to earth seems evident according to the creation story, and the attempt for return through moral action. Psychic powers, i would argue, are marked by dominance of the fire element, hence the Buddha's third noble truth is made in clear contrast to that. We seem to truly live in a world controlled by Mara.

[Bundokji]

I echo ceiling post on the topic - virtue as deva, right view as noblility.

But I notice a minor details in OP that might imply Nibbana as extinction.
In my view - nibbana is very much not extinction.

Let's first clarify what Buddha has said about nibbana -
Extinction of possibility of dukkha. That is the whole N8F aiming for.
But does that mean extinction of other possibilities other than topic of dukkha?
not really. Buddha, instead of saying, it is empty.

We all know, great bliss is nibbana.
Slightly below nibbana's purity, it is 4 Brahma viharas. Are those gonna be ceased as Dukkha?
We all know, it is not true. As arahant is full of love, compassion, mudita & equanimity.
Those are Great Bliss's reflection upon human mind. That is the limit an impure mind can understand Great Bliss.

It is not nibbana itself is only Great Bliss, Silence, Deathless. Those are barely the limitation a mind is able to phantom about nibbana. Beyond that, a mind could neither imagine nor accept.

Buddha said N8F merely a tiny portion out of his vast knowledge. Although I am limited by impurity to think beyond Deathless, but I am more inclined Nibbana is empty with all sort of potentials except potential of dukkha.

Or extinction of potential of dukkha, can't be all there is. Language is already a limiting factor, right here.

Extinction could be in the sense of fire element dominance and how its used to deceive. Here, Palto's Allegory of the Cave comes to mind. The fire is what keeps us stuck in the world of shadows until we set ourselves free. Describing rupa loka as the realm of pure forms is somehow similar to Plato's world of ideal forms. The sage, who managed to set himself free did not extinguish the fire, but was able to go outside the cave and tell the imprisoned about their delusions. In the cave, the world of shadows persist, and extinguishing the fire is not an option. Going beyond the elements is associated with "consciousness without a surface" according to the suttas.

[Jack19990101]

I think Nibbana is extinction of all that a human mind can comprehend, that is for sure.

But extinction is peace, we don't really need Buddha the Perfect One to teach.
lots of us born nil-list, they would know it without any teaching.

If avijja, a tiny burp breakaway from purity can spin heaven & hell, what nibbana is capable.

Animal can't phantom art, anime hero can't phantom flying off paper, human can't phantom what is beyond happiness.

I am curious the vast knowledge Buddha has not told, lots of them is about nibbana. But it is beyond downstream(us) of avijja to imagine.

[Cause_and_Effect]

Are there any teachings that highlight what kind of practices that leads to nobility and what kind of practices that leads to god? How to minimize the risk of being converted to a god and maximize being converted to ariya in light of right effort?

Your statement is inaccurate. The path of the Ariya and of the gods is not mutually exclusive. In fact unless one attains Arahantship it will usually involve rebirth as an Ariya deva.
This isn't something to be aimed for as an end in itself, buts it's a very worthy and Noble aim nonetheless as it involves practicing for the fruit of stream entry.

If you are really sincere about practicing directly for Arahantship only then you would be expected to be considering monasticism.

[Joe.c]

There is a parallel in term of reborn as a god and being noble.

To be a god, one needs to have similar behavior as the god. That is good conducts, generous/charitable, helping others, etc. these type of behaviors needs to cultivate for 24/7. Also one needs to let go/not too attach to regular human behavior such as work/family, money etc. Because in god realm, no body use money. also make sure to cultivate peaceful behavior/conducts in daily life.

There are many type of gods, sensual realm and rupa/arupa realm. For sensual realm typically enjoy in 5 senses. For god in rupa/arupa one needs to have/maintain jhana usually transcend the 5 senses. There are also nobles in these realms.

However to be noble, one needs to see/know/associate with them and hear true dhamma from them. Upon hearing dhamma with focus attention, practice the dhamma in daily life for 24 hour/day. For stream enterer, the 5 precepts are important in daily life 24/7. These 5 precepts are the basic for right conducts.

If one can’t penetrate to higher wisdom such as stream enterer and once returner, typically they will go to god realm and comeback to human world.

However if one can reach and maintain jhana in daily life, then at the very least it is a non returner, possibly an arahant.

So to be take an existence in god realm and being noble, there is sort of parallel. But only different is the right view involve in it. Noble right view is ending of dukkhas, but ignoble right view is enjoyment of 5 senses or enjoyment of rupa/arupa world.

So don’t get to attach to human world, keep practice five precepts. When one become good, one will see more good people.

In Buddha teaching, one can even experience the god realm in this human world. Just see DN 9 for details.

If you read Buddha before his awakening, he has 3 big houses for enjoyment (sensual pleasure). These type of experiences are like living in god realm. The more you have sensual pleasure, eventually one will get bored and seek higher bliss. This is when one can transcend sensual pleasure (aka jhana).

Good luck.

[Bundokji]

Your statement is inaccurate. The path of the Ariya and of the gods is not mutually exclusive. In fact unless one attains Arahantship it will usually involve rebirth as an Ariya deva.

Not all devas are Ariya. It seems some devas recognize the noble ones and their superiority and some do not it. For example, Brahma Sahampati recognized the lord Buddha and persuaded him to teach. There is no indication that Brahma Sahampati was an Ariya, but from cosmological perspective, he dwells in the fourth Jhana. In Bahiya sutta, the devata knew about the awakened one and assisted Bahiya in finding him to get instructed. Again, there is no indication that the devata was an Ariya. Of course, descriptions of the four noble attainment indicate that they cannot be reborn below the human realm, and they can be reborn as gods, but not every god is an Ariya. In some instances, gods can be confused as with the case of Maha Brahma.

One interpretation could be that Ariya is a linage of each Buddha in a solar cycle. It could be that from cosmological perspective, the cosmos cannot take too much of the Ariyan race considering that there can be only one Buddha in a solar system who chooses who to convert. Other exceptional beings have to be contented with being gods.

[Bundokji]

There is a parallel in term of reborn as a god and being noble.

To be a god, one needs to have similar behavior as the god. That is good conducts, generous/charitable, helping others, etc. these type of behaviors needs to cultivate for 24/7. Also one needs to let go/not too attach to regular human behavior such as work/family, money etc. Because in god realm, no body use money. also make sure to cultivate peaceful behavior/conducts in daily life.

There are many type of gods, sensual realm and rupa/arupa realm. For sensual realm typically enjoy in 5 senses. For god in rupa/arupa one needs to have/maintain jhana usually transcend the 5 senses. There are also nobles in these realms.

However to be noble, one needs to see/know/associate with them and hear true dhamma from them. Upon hearing dhamma with focus attention, practice the dhamma in daily life for 24 hour/day. For stream enterer, the 5 precepts are important in daily life 24/7. These 5 precepts are the basic for right conducts.

If one can’t penetrate to higher wisdom such as stream enterer and once returner, typically they will go to god realm and comeback to human world.

However if one can reach and maintain jhana in daily life, then at the very least it is a non returner, possibly an arahant.

So to be take an existence in god realm and being noble, there is sort of parallel. But only different is the right view involve in it. Noble right view is ending of dukkhas, but ignoble right view is enjoyment of 5 senses or enjoyment of rupa/arupa world.

So don’t get to attach to human world, keep practice five precepts. When one become good, one will see more good people.

In Buddha teaching, one can even experience the god realm in this human world. Just see DN 9 for details.

If you read Buddha before his awakening, he has 3 big houses for enjoyment (sensual pleasure). These type of experiences are like living in god realm. The more you have sensual pleasure, eventually one will get bored and seek higher bliss. This is when one can transcend sensual pleasure (aka jhana).

Good luck.

I am not sure if sustaining Jhana is the answer. AN 3.76 have the same description in relation to the sensual, form and formless properties:

kamma is the field, consciousness the seed, and craving the moisture.

The difficulty in understanding this is that kamma would not be the field in the form and the formless properties. Maybe the difference between an Ariya and a god is the very understanding of this. The Ariyas dwelling in higher realms do not seem to be sustained by craving.

As to the meaning kamma, and its applicability to the three properties, the teachings for humans seem to focus on making a distinction between feeling and craving to end becoming in kamma loka. In higher realms, kamma might have a totally different meaning. It would still be connected to Bhava, but not in a way that an ordinary person could comprehend. I would say Dukkha would also take a different meaning. Translating it as suffering is also meant to assist humans to go higher. Gods does not suffer, hence the human realm is said to be a perfect place to be taught the dhamma.

The ambiguity of meaning continues as to the meaning of the five precepts. It is not only money that are is transcended among gods and ariya, but all the underlying concepts to be conveyed through the five precepts: life, sex, money, mind and truth. These are the shadows of a consciousness held hostage to the lights of Mara. In fact, human tractability is contingent on those.

[SteRo]

Are there any teachings that highlight what kind of practices that leads to nobility and what kind of practices that leads to god? How to minimize the risk of being converted to a god and maximize being converted to ariya in light of right effort?

It is astonishing that there is doctrinal uncertainty. Maybe an effect of the incoherence of sutta? Vism may straighten things out.

[Coëmgenu]

Don't say "incoherence of sutta." That's grounds for a lynching, like some of those I've given you for misrepresenting Madhyamaka.

"Coherence of the suttas" is a sacred doctrine of Buddhist modernists.

[justindesilva]

Don't say "incoherence of sutta." That's grounds for a lynching, like some of those I've given you for misrepresenting Madhyamaka.

"Coherence of the suttas" is a sacred doctrine of Buddhist modernists.

I recently read an article in a post fb. explaining deity as atomic frequencies. It quotes from Maha nidana sutta as expounded by lord budda to Ananda thero that beings as deities explained with the term vingnananastithi . Vinngnanastithi in fact are atomic frequencies of minds. But understood in quantum based science in modern physics. It is amazing to know that lord budda and ananda thero had such a discussion. It is described under seven stages of consciousness.
Loweda sangarawa (long ago) a poetic magazine written in sri lanka writes that there are beings who herit minds without physical bodies in four brahma worlds.