How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

[Konstantin Sol]

I will also ask about conditioning. I can't understand at all.
But can't we remember the detail we need on request to our mind?
For example, we lost the keys. We make a request to the mind where we saw them last. We remember and find.

...
It is also argued that the body is "not ours", not in our power, not under our control, thoughts are not under control. But it is obvious that we control the body and thoughts. We can act with the body, strengthen it. We can remember what we want, focus on the right thought, of our choice. How does it happen then?
...

Obvious? Can you tell the body to stop ageing? To not fall ill? To not break apart and decompose? Are you sure you produce your memories, your thoughts? Do you really think you can make a thought be one way and other thought be another way?

[mjaviem]

I will also ask about conditioning. I can't understand at all.
But can't we remember the detail we need on request to our mind?
For example, we lost the keys. We make a request to the mind where we saw them last. We remember and find.

One day you won't remember the details or won't remember at all. This is not fulfilling so this mental activity can't be yourself either. It's not really under your control. Is it?

[Konstantin Sol]

Yes, memory is unreliable. You are probably right, thanks.

[Konstantin Sol]

And on the subject of conditioning.
If a person decides to meditate tomorrow morning and they tell their mind to "remind me of this in the morning", will the reminder come through conditioning or just the reaction of the mind to the command? How does conditioning work? Thoughts are also all conditioned?

[mjaviem]

And on the subject of conditioning.
If a person decides to meditate tomorrow morning and they tell their mind to "remind me of this in the morning", will the reminder come through conditioning or just the reaction of the mind to the command? How does conditioning work? Thoughts are also all conditioned?

This is a science question, unrelated to the Teachings. Behavior conditioning, mind conditioning: You can find a good answer from a scientist I guess.

[cappuccino]

Yes, memory is unreliable.

You remember who you are every day

[pegembara]

"Realize that ultimately you cannot control your thoughts, emotions and experiences." Experience any feeling or emotion at will, desire. Right?

Taming/training and control are two different things. You can train/tame a horse and yes then control it to some extent yes but not to the extent that the horse is now your "self". The mind is the same.

For thoughts to really be a product of my "self" I'd expect to have full control of them, i'd expect to be able to sit on the meditation cushion for an hour and have no thoughts randomly arise that I conciously didn't choose to think. This doesn't happen, and this is one of the first things people learn when starting a meditation practice.

Good point.

Konstantin's thoughts, emotions and feelings or 'mind' are Konstantin's. Just as Konstantin's car is Konstantin's. Or Konstantin's body.
BUT you are NOT Konstantin which is a label given by your parents or yourself online. Konstantin is your avatar as it were. A mere fabrication.

This you can realize through meditation.

"Therefore, surely, O monks, whatever form, past, future or present, internal or external, coarse or fine, low or lofty, far or near, all that form must be regarded with proper wisdom, according to reality, thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .mend.html

[Goofaholix]

Konstantin is your avatar as it were. A mere fabrication.

That is a good way to put it, something to reflect on.

[Konstantin Sol]

No, about "self" I basically understand.
I don't understand the conditioning and how to act.

Abhidhamma in practice.
Dr. N.K.G. mendis
Chitta, cetasiki and rupa are the conditioned dhammas. They arise due to conditions and disappear when the conditions cease to support them.... Each of us in the highest sense of the word is nama-rupa, a combination of psychic and material phenomena, and nothing more. Apart from these three groups of dhammas, which form the combination of nama-rupa, there is no ego, self or soul.

That is, it turns out that all dhammas, skandhas are conditioned. So thoughts are also conditioned. Right?
It turns out that it is not we who think the thought, but the thought itself is thought. That is, it turns out that we should not and cannot do anything and initiate, but simply look at thoughts, wait for the thoughts to appear, choose the right one from them and act in accordance with it or get rid of unnecessary and do not act. What thoughts appear is completely independent of us. What appears will appear.
Right? Is this how a Buddhist thinks?

[pegembara]

No, about "self" I basically understand.
I don't understand the conditioning and how to act.

Abhidhamma in practice.
Dr. N.K.G. mendis
Chitta, cetasiki and rupa are the conditioned dhammas. They arise due to conditions and disappear when the conditions cease to support them.... Each of us in the highest sense of the word is nama-rupa, a combination of psychic and material phenomena, and nothing more. Apart from these three groups of dhammas, which form the combination of nama-rupa, there is no ego, self or soul.

That is, it turns out that all dhammas, skandhas are conditioned. So thoughts are also conditioned. Right?
It turns out that it is not we who think the thought, but the thought itself is thought. That is, it turns out that we should not and cannot do anything and initiate, but simply look at thoughts, wait for the thoughts to appear, choose the right one from them and act in accordance with it or get rid of unnecessary and do not act. What thoughts appear is completely independent of us. What appears will appear.
Right? Is this how a Buddhist thinks?

No, no.
As long as you are still identified with Konstantin, that thought is yours and you can choose to develop good thoughts and ignore unwholesome ones for your long-term welfare and happiness. If Konstantin polite, they will get polite response which will lead to wholesome thoughts and vice versa.

Konstantin is your outer persona that engages with the world and is subjected to the law of cause and effect. Or kamma.
Konstantin cannot think their way out of this because that is just another thought.
There would be no need to have to follow the Noble Eight-Fold path!

That voice that says you need no effort since there is nothing you can do anyway is tricky.
It is just another thought.

What is needed is clear seeing of the 3 characteristics and not thinking.

Verse 277: "All conditioned phenomena are impermanent"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i.e., the khandhas). This is the Path to Purity.

Verse 278: "All conditioned phenomena are dukkha"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i.e., the khandhas). This is the Path to Purity.

Verse 279: "All phenomena (dhammas) are without Self"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i.e., the khandhas). This is the Path to Purity.

[Scabrella]

It turns out that it is not we who think the thought, but the thought itself is thought. That is, it turns out that we should not and cannot do anything and initiate, but simply look at thoughts, wait for the thoughts to appear, choose the right one from them and act in accordance with it or get rid of unnecessary and do not act. What thoughts appear is completely independent of us. What appears will appear.
Right? Is this how a Buddhist thinks?

Most thoughts cannot be independent of "us" because most thoughts are about "us". When your mind is out of control, is it thinking about moons, suns, trees & clouds? Or is your mind thinking about "us" and "me"?

[pegembara]

The thinker(or the I) and thoughts are one and the same. No separation.
Dependently arisen.
The real 'you' isn't a thought but is independent of thought/thinking.

When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

Mental clutter is the energy we consume every day and the thoughts that take up space in our mind. It is the "noise" that keeps us from seeing the world through a clear lens.

“Be quiet in your mind, quiet in your senses, and also quiet in your body. Then, when all these are quiet, don’t do anything. In that state truth will reveal itself to you.”

— Kabir

[Konstantin Sol]

Thank you. Need to think about it.

[Konstantin Sol]

No, about "self" I basically understand.
I don't understand the conditioning and how to act.

Abhidhamma in practice.
Dr. N.K.G. mendis
Chitta, cetasiki and rupa are the conditioned dhammas. They arise due to conditions and disappear when the conditions cease to support them.... Each of us in the highest sense of the word is nama-rupa, a combination of psychic and material phenomena, and nothing more. Apart from these three groups of dhammas, which form the combination of nama-rupa, there is no ego, self or soul.

That is, it turns out that all dhammas, skandhas are conditioned. So thoughts are also conditioned. Right?
It turns out that it is not we who think the thought, but the thought itself is thought. That is, it turns out that we should not and cannot do anything and initiate, but simply look at thoughts, wait for the thoughts to appear, choose the right one from them and act in accordance with it or get rid of unnecessary and do not act. What thoughts appear is completely independent of us. What appears will appear.
Right? Is this how a Buddhist thinks?

No, no.
As long as you are still identified with Konstantin, that thought is yours and you can choose to develop good thoughts and ignore unwholesome ones for your long-term welfare and happiness. If Konstantin polite, they will get polite response which will lead to wholesome thoughts and vice versa.

Konstantin is your outer persona that engages with the world and is subjected to the law of cause and effect. Or kamma.
Konstantin cannot think their way out of this because that is just another thought.
There would be no need to have to follow the Noble Eight-Fold path!

That voice that says you need no effort since there is nothing you can do anyway is tricky.
It is just another thought.

What is needed is clear seeing of the 3 characteristics and not thinking.

Verse 277: "All conditioned phenomena are impermanent"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i.e., the khandhas). This is the Path to Purity.

Verse 278: "All conditioned phenomena are dukkha"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i.e., the khandhas). This is the Path to Purity.

Verse 279: "All phenomena (dhammas) are without Self"; when one sees this with Insight-wisdom, one becomes weary of dukkha (i.e., the khandhas). This is the Path to Purity.

Well, if you do not identify yourself with Constantine? After all, this is the truth. I do not exist as an entity. Then how to develop good thoughts if there is no subject (no self), and thoughts are "not mine." Who will develop? Thoughts themselves appear, independently of me, in accordance with causes and conditions. So you have to wait until until there are thoughts of developing good thoughts. Right?

[pegembara]

Well, if you do not identify yourself with Constantine? After all, this is the truth. I do not exist as an entity. Then how to develop good thoughts if there is no subject (no self), and thoughts are "not mine." Who will develop? Thoughts themselves appear, independently of me, in accordance with causes and conditions. So you have to wait until there are thoughts of developing good thoughts. Right?

You develop good thoughts in order to reach a point where you no longer identify with anything. A fully awakened one. That is the goal. Before that point, you need sila, samadhi, and panna or the Noble Eightfold Path. You cannot fake it until you make it!