How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

[Goofaholix]

And what should be done?

Observe experiences as they arise and pass away, see their impermanence. Observe and see that no impermanent experience can provide you with lasting happiness, in fact trying to manipulate experience in this way causes more problems than its worth. See that ultimately you can't control your thoughts, emotions, and experiences. Therefore they are not self, let go of identification with and attachment to them.

[Scabrella]

Observe experiences as they arise and pass away, see their impermanence.... See that ultimately you can't control your thoughts, emotions, and experiences.

Hello. I cannot imagine how a mind that cannot control its thoughts & emotions can see their impermanence.

[Goofaholix]

Hello. I cannot imagine how a mind that cannot control its thoughts & emotions can see their impermanence.

Don't imagine, just do, its pretty easy.

[pegembara]

The body is not yours. It is 'given' to you by your parents just like your name was. And yet you can seemingly control and develop it to a certain degree.
It is the same thing with the mind. The mind was not born with the ability to do maths and write an essay but can be trained to do so.

The reason why it has to be developed is simply that it isn't yours and you need to create the right conditions for its development. Everything is due to causes and conditions ... hence it is not self. It it was, you would not require any effort!

[Scabrella]

its pretty easy.

Its illogical, the uncontrolled mind can control the mind. Does Buddhism teach the result of seeing impermanence is the continuation of uncontrolled thoughts & emotions? I doubt it. Seeing impermanence would lead to a loss of infatuation, which would be a reduction in thoughts & emotions.

[whynotme]

And what should be done?

Observe experiences as they arise and pass away, see their impermanence. Observe and see that no impermanent experience can provide you with lasting happiness, in fact trying to manipulate experience in this way causes more problems than its worth. See that ultimately you can't control your thoughts, emotions, and experiences. Therefore they are not self, let go of identification with and attachment to them.

While this is a good advice it is not for general ppl. If someone has the prepared conditions then he can observe with wisdom.

But for generally, it's hard bc you can not observe thing out of your own perception.

The Buddha teaches about three steps, sila or virtue, samadhi or calmness, and panna or wisdom in 8 branches paths.

Panna or wisdom is needed to observe effectively. But wisdom needs calmness or concentration as precondition or else you can not observe anything rather than your own perception. And calmness needs virtue as condition bc someone tangled in worldly business with wrongly calculations can not calm his mind. That's the three steps.

Before the calmness of the mind, it's needed the rightly conscious efforts to do the right things. The right things is not the right things for the world but for the mind. It's the sixth step samma vayama or righteous efforts. Without rightly efforts the mind will follow its subconscious/ unconscious perceptions like habits etc.

The right efforts is needed to overcome negative kamma, habit.. or anything negative in the mind fear, greed... which is unconsciously in control.

After overcoming these with conscious intention, the mind can learn to relax or being normal by itself. Then it can observe. Then it can calm. This point is the whole point. If the precondition can not be meet the mind can not see anything rather than its own illusion.

That is the point of sila and sammadhi

[Goofaholix]

Its illogical, the uncontrolled mind can control the mind. Does Buddhism teach the result of seeing impermanence is the continuation of uncontrolled thoughts & emotions? I doubt it. Seeing impermanence would lead to a loss of infatuation, which would be a reduction in thoughts & emotions.

Of course the uncontrolled mind can't control the mind, one just needs to observe it, imperfectly and lagging behind. Over time this is enough to put two and two together and observe patterns seeing through through whats on the surface level.

Seeing impermanence would lead to a loss of identification, infatuation is probably a good word for this also. Thoughts & emotions aren't as bothersome as seeing them with more clarity over time one doesn't identify with them and proliferate them.

[Goofaholix]

That is the point of sila and sammadhi

Certainly sila and samadhi help support and enhance the process of developing panna that I described. All three support and improve each other over time, one just needs to start from where you are now.

Imagining how it could possibly work is not starting, saying its too hard is not starting.

[Konstantin Sol]

And what should be done?

Observe experiences as they arise and pass away, see their impermanence. Observe and see that no impermanent experience can provide you with lasting happiness, in fact trying to manipulate experience in this way causes more problems than its worth. See that ultimately you can't control your thoughts, emotions, and experiences. Therefore they are not self, let go of identification with and attachment to them.

If we can't control, then what is it?:

.Dhammawuddho Thera.
Taming the mind. The untrained mind is wild and restless, like an untamed horse. It must be tamed before it can be useful. The Buddha compared the ordinary mind to six animals44 tied together and pulling each other in different directions. They must be tied to a pole to be harnessed and tamed. In the same way, we attach our mind to one single object of meditation instead of allowing the mind to aspire to the objects of the six senses. Over time, it will establish itself on the object of meditation. This is the only way to tame the mind and gain control over it.

[Goofaholix]

If we can't control, then what is it?:

As per the quote you posted we tame it, seeing things clearly we condition it so that it naturally avoids that which is unskillful.

[Konstantin Sol]

How do we condition mind?

And avoiding what is unskillful, and taking what is skillful, isn't that control?

[Goofaholix]

How do we condition mind?

This for a starters... Observe experiences as they arise and pass away, see their impermanence. Observe and see that no impermanent experience can provide you with lasting happiness, in fact trying to manipulate experience in this way causes more problems than its worth. See that ultimately you can't control your thoughts, emotions, and experiences. Therefore they are not self, let go of identification with and attachment to them.

And avoiding what is unskillful, and taking what is skillful, isn't that control?

No, but that's besides the point, the point was if it were your "self" it would already be controlled by you.

[Konstantin Sol]

herefore they are not self, let go of identification with and attachment to them.

I think it's too early for this, I'm not quite ready.

Ok, I think we just misunderstood each other a little. Let's go back a little, if you do not mind.

Dhammawuddho Thera.
Taming the mind. The untrained mind is wild and restless, like an untamed horse. It must be tamed before it can be useful. The Buddha compared the ordinary mind to six animals44 tied together and pulling each other in different directions. They must be tied to a pole to be harnessed and tamed. In the same way, we attach our mind to one single object of meditation instead of allowing the mind to aspire to the objects of the six senses. Over time, it will establish itself on the object of meditation. This is the only way to tame the mind and gain control over it.

I called it control, you call it domestication of the mind. Right?

You meant by control that it is an opportunity to tell the body to stop aging, not to get sick, not to fall apart. Experience any feeling or emotion at will, desire. "Realize that ultimately you cannot control your thoughts, emotions and experiences." We cannot stop the flow of thoughts. Thoughts come whether we like it or not. Right?
In that case, well, of course, I understand that there is no absolute control.

Yes, but we can get rid of unnecessary thought. Focus on what we need. etc. We have such an opportunity. Well, it's obvious.
And we can develop the mind, improving its abilities and capabilities, through the practice of domestication of the mind.
As the venerable Pegembara writes: "The body is not yours. It is 'given' to you by your parents just like your name. Yet you can control and develop it to a certain extent. It's the same with the mind. The mind is not born with the ability to do math and write essays, but it can be trained to do so."

The Noble Eightfold Path
The Way to the End of Suffering
by Bhikkhu Bodhi
Since an uncontrolled response to the sensory input stimulates the latent defilements, what is evidently needed to prevent them from arising is control over the senses. Thus the Buddha teaches, as the discipline for keeping the hindrances in check, an exercise called the restraint of the sense faculties (indriya-samvara):

When he perceives a form with the eye, a sound with the ear, an odor with the nose, a taste with the tongue, an impression with the body, or an object with the mind, he apprehends neither the sign nor the particulars. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome states, greed and sorrow, would arise, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses.[40]

Restraint of the senses does not mean denial of the senses, retreating into a total withdrawal from the sensory world. This is impossible, and even if it could be achieved, the real problem would still not be solved; for the defilements lie in the mind, not in the sense organs or objects. The key to sense control is indicated by the phrase "not apprehending the sign or the particulars." The "sign" (nimitta) is the object's general appearance insofar as this appearance is grasped as the basis for defiled thoughts; the "particulars" (anubyanjana) are its less conspicuous features. If sense control is lacking, the mind roams recklessly over the sense fields. First it grasps the sign, which sets the defilements into motion, then it explores the particulars, which permits them to multiply and thrive.

Whereas this first of the five methods for expelling the hindrances involves a one-to-one alignment between a hindrance and its remedy, the other four utilize general approaches. The second marshals the forces of shame (hiri) and moral dread (ottappa) to abandon the unwanted thought: one reflects on the thought as vile and ignoble or considers its undesirable consequences until an inner revulsion sets in which drives the thought away. The third method involves a deliberate diversion of attention. When an unwholesome thought arises and clamours to be noticed, instead of indulging it one simply shuts it out by redirecting one's attention elsewhere, as if closing one's eyes or looking away to avoid an unpleasant sight. The fourth method uses the opposite approach. Instead of turning away from the unwanted thought, one confronts it directly as an object, scrutinizes its features, and investigates its source. When this is done the thought quiets down and eventually disappears. For an unwholesome thought is like a thief: it only creates trouble when its operation is concealed, but put under observation it becomes tame. The fifth method, to be used only as a last resort, is suppression — vigorously restraining the unwholesome thought with the power of the will in the way a strong man might throw a weaker man to the ground and keep him pinned there with his weight.

By applying these five methods with skill and discretion, the Buddha says, one becomes a master of all the pathways of thought. One is no longer the subject of the mind but its master. Whatever thought one wants to think, that one will think. Whatever thought one does not want to think, that one will not think. Even if unwholesome thoughts occasionally arise, one can dispel them immediately, just as quickly as a red-hot pan will turn to steam a few chance drops of water.

I think I understand you correctly now. Right?

[Goofaholix]

"Realize that ultimately you cannot control your thoughts, emotions and experiences." Experience any feeling or emotion at will, desire. Right?

Taming/training and control are two different things. You can train/tame a horse and yes then control it to some extent yes but not to the extent that the horse is now your "self". The mind is the same.

For thoughts to really be a product of my "self" I'd expect to have full control of them, i'd expect to be able to sit on the meditation cushion for an hour and have no thoughts randomly arise that I conciously didn't choose to think. This doesn't happen, and this is one of the first things people learn when starting a meditation practice.

[Konstantin Sol]

Great! Thank you very much!
I agree with you.
Finally, I understood where there was a misunderstanding.
Well, it's not my fault that the teacher called it "control", Ha-ha

This is the only way to tame the mind and gain control over it.