How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Joe.c
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Joe.c »

pegembara wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:51 pm Thought created man, the thinker.
...
You don't control the mind. The mind controls you by making you think that you are in control.
This is NOT Buddha Teaching.

An arahant has wisdom to transcend the mind and body. Actually an arahant gain control with wisdom.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Joe.c
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Joe.c »

Lal wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:27 pm Nibbana means to stop the rebirth process, as I mentioned above.
Nibbana is not to stop rebirth.

Nibbana is to be freed from dukkhas. And transcend birth, sick, old age, death by fully understood with wisdom.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

And one more question. It is believed that dhammas are instantaneous, appearing and disappearing. But it is obvious in practice that, for example, anger or malice lasts for a long time, several minutes, and for someone, a day or longer. How to understand it?
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Goofaholix
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Goofaholix »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:28 am That is, it turns out that we should not and cannot do anything and initiate, but simply look at thoughts, wait for thoughts to appear, choose the right one from them and act in accordance with it, or get rid of unnecessary ones and not act. Is that what you wanted to say?
Sounds reasonable.
Konstantin Sol wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:28 am And one more question. What does it mean? Can you tell me more?
Causes and conditions dictate which cards you are dealt but you can choose how to play your hand, and learn to play our hand better in future.
This is one of the reasons why we practice, recognising the past conditioning that created the present we see that we can in the present create better conditioning for the future, its insight/panna in action.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
pegembara
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by pegembara »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:11 am
pegembara wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:51 pm
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:27 am And what, really thoughts appear only because of conditions? And man himself can not create a thought?
Thought created man, the thinker.
Without the activity of thinking, there are no thoughts or thinkers.
You can only realize this when thinking has stopped.
'You' then become 'witness' to the thinking process as it were and stop identifying with those thoughts!
If you are sharp enough, you also witness the arising of intentions, feelings, and many other things.

You don't control the mind. The mind controls you by making you think that you are in control.
if you do not control the mind, then what is it?
right effort does not exist?
.Dhammawuddho Thera.
Taming the mind. The untrained mind is wild and restless, like an untamed horse. It must be tamed before it can be useful. The Buddha compared the ordinary mind to six animals44 tied together and pulling each other in different directions. They must be tied to a pole to be harnessed and tamed. In the same way, we attach our mind to one single object of meditation instead of allowing the mind to aspire to the objects of the six senses. Over time, it will establish itself on the object of meditation. This is the only way to tame the mind and gain control over it.
The Noble Eightfold Path
The Way to the End of Suffering
by Bhikkhu Bodhi
By applying these five methods with skill and discretion, the Buddha says, one becomes a master of all the pathways of thought. One is no longer the subject of the mind but its master. Whatever thought one wants to think, that one will think. Whatever thought one does not want to think, that one will not think. Even if unwholesome thoughts occasionally arise, one can dispel them immediately, just as quickly as a red-hot pan will turn to steam a few chance drops of water.
Mind is mind. Without a mind, you don't experience anything. It is the reason we 'exist'.
Without experience, you don't 'experience' 'mind' or you don't 'exist'.
No separation - dependently arisen is mind <--> experience.
'You' are 'mind'. All that arises and experiences is the 'mind'.

You experience 'wind' and yet you know that 'wind' is not a thing or entity but activity.
When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana."
"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left and the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and plain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all this is experience, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
Last edited by pegembara on Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Ok, I got that part.
Thought created man, the thinker.
Without the activity of thinking, there are no thoughts or thinkers.
You can only realize this when thinking has stopped.
'You' then become 'witness' to the thinking process as it were and stop identifying with those thoughts!
If you are sharp enough, you also witness the arising of intentions, feelings, and many other things.
If we talk about the second, then apparently you meant that there is no absolute control, but there is an opportunity to manage and tame, which you already wrote earlier.
You don't control the mind. The mind controls you by making you think that you are in control.
The body is not yours. It is 'given' to you by your parents just like your name was. And yet you can seemingly control and develop it to a certain degree.
It is the same thing with the mind. The mind was not born with the ability to do maths and write an essay but can be trained to do so.
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
pegembara
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by pegembara »

Joe.c wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:48 am
Lal wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:27 pm Nibbana means to stop the rebirth process, as I mentioned above.
Nibbana is not to stop rebirth.

Nibbana is to be freed from dukkhas. And transcend birth, sick, old age, death by fully understood with wisdom.
The reason for aging, sickness, and death is birth. How are you supposed to stop them if you are still being born?
All that is born will die. Arising, arising, ceasing, ceasing. This is to be fully understood with wisdom.

It is both simple and logical but not easy to accept as truth.
From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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robertk
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by robertk »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 2:52 am And one more question. It is believed that dhammas are instantaneous, appearing and disappearing. But it is obvious in practice that, for example, anger or malice lasts for a long time, several minutes, and for someone, a day or longer. How to understand it?
I would say if understanding progresses that it becomes obvious that anger or malice is utterly momentary.
It is only because of the veil of delusion that this truth is obscured.
p.59 Sammohavinodani (the dispeller of delusion)

But it is owing to not keeping in mind, owing to non-penetration of what and owing to concealment by what that these characteristics do not appear? Firstly the characteristic of impermanence does not appear owing to not keeping in mind, not penetrating rise and fall owing to its being concealed by continuity (santati).
The
Anger is so momentary - and yet anger will rearise. A different anger, but if fueled by similar thoughts is mistaken as the same anger

The path is really about seeing into the anattaness of nature, of every moment. Thinking is conditioned and void of self. And so is anger, seeing, sound, hearing, happiness, sadness. All empty.

There is no self, no being, no one behind it all. Just empty processes repeatedly occurring .
readysetletgo
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by readysetletgo »

Some parts of the mind are not self, so it makes sense to let go of them rather than control them. The part that is not self is the part that unknowingly allows suffering.
RobertoAnces
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by RobertoAnces »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:17 am [...]
Just my 50 cents:

In my opinion, at a practical level, the fact that your discursive thoughts are not yours simply means that you do not have total control over them and therefore, sooner or later, they will cause you suffering.

You can't choose which thoughts are presented to you but you can choose welcome, delight, entertain them or not.

With respect to thoughts the mind presents you with one thought after another and you choose which ones welcome, delight, entertain (which ones you cling for). If you don't welcome, delight, entertain a though this though just decays, ceases, and the mind simply presents you with another "maybe more interesting" to try, until you welcome, delight, entertain one and you follow this "though stream", in your terms you cannot choose what thought your mind presents to you, but in its terms yes, and how can you choose what thoughts your mind presents to you? Well, as Buddha explained:

If when an unwholesome thought arises you don't welcome, delight, entertain it (if you don't get involved, if you don't follow that thought.), the mind knows that you haven't welcome, delight, entertain this kind of thought (You aren't interested, mind tries to help, mind suggest to you things that in the past you where interested to (cars thoughts, women thoughts, money thoughts, ill will thoughts ... whatever you were interested in the past in), mind is already tamed, you have tamed it since your were worn without knowing, Buddha explains you how to properly tame your six animals) and in the future it will present fewer thoughts of this type to you. By the way all day, must be done all day no just when sited, you don't tame a dog one hour a day and the rest of the day allow it to be wild.

Don't fight with your thoughts either, don't try to eliminate or change them, if an unwholesome thought has arisen just let it go, don't give it energy, don't cling on it and it will disappear in seconds by itself because it hasn't been welcome, delight, entertain. It is not your responsibility what thoughts arise, it is your responsibility which ones you welcome, delight, entertain. Fighting with them is a way of welcoming, delighting, entertaining.


35.247. The Simile of the Six Animals : https://suttacentral.net/sn35.247/en/bo ... ight=false

For example, the mind of someone who really likes cars will present many thoughts about cars because mind knows that these thoughts have a good chance to be welcome, delight, entertain (just trying to help, mind just doing what has being unknowingly tamed to do since he was born). And the mind is even more intelligent, it knows that when you are hungry the thoughts of food will be welcomed and will present you with many, when you are depressed the negative thoughts will be welcomed and will present you with many... the six animals work with paticcasamuppada but this is another issue.

That's why Buddha talks about taming the mind like someone who trains an animal, you can't control the animal, the animal does what it wants, but if you know how it works, if you know the nature of the animal, if you know how to tame it, you can train it to behave as you want. An once the animal is tamed you can just sit and relax a little bit, knowing is not going to do anything unwholesome.

Your discursive thoughts are like the youtube algorithm, it presents you with suggestions and if it sees that you consume videos of a certain thematic, in the future it presents you with more suggestions of this thematic (albeit semi-randomly), then you are not the owner of the youtube algorithm but it can be tamed by you, if you want it to just present you videos of dhamma, click only on the videos about dhamma, even if it presents you with some suggestive video of another thematic or a click bate, don't click, only videos of dhamma, and after a few weeks or months you will see that almost everything that is presented to you is related to dhamma, no unwholesome suggestions, no need to resist the temptation to click in unwholesome suggestions, youtube algorithm tamed.

Summary regarding the discursive thoughts you have to see the reality, you do not choose them, they are presented to you and you decide if welcome, delight, entertain them. Also you are not your thoughts, people are usually totally identified with their own thoughts, like in a trance, like "sleep", like in an "illusion", that's why some people call to unidentified with thoughts "awakening" (you can google to check if you are already "awaken").


If you want to tame your mind (or the six animals) them Buddha explains how to do it, and when mind is trained only wholesome thoughts will be presented to you. And if you continue and not even welcome, delight, entertain the wholesome toughs,a moment will come that will simply present you with fewer and fewer thoughts, you will see that there are gaps between thoughts, at the beginning of seconds, minutes... (to have less discursive thoughts in my opinion is not a goal in practice, people gets obsessed with this, it will happen just naturally when it has to happen)

Hint: I talk about taming the thoughts because it seems to interest you the most, but in my opinion to unidentified with thoughts, body, feelings ... should be done first, it's hard to tame thoughts when there is no "space", when you're fully identified whit them.

If you have not managed to get the first fetter to fall, I would not complicate myself with more complex theories about anatta and just will practice to make the first fetter fell to unidentified myself with thoughts before trying to tame them. :namaste:
Joe.c
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Joe.c »

RobertoAnces wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 6:41 pm ...
Wow.. very nice analysis indeed.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Joe.c
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Joe.c »

pegembara wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:26 am The reason for aging, sickness, and death is birth. How are you supposed to stop them if you are still being born?
All that is born will die. Arising, arising, ceasing, ceasing. This is to be fully understood with wisdom.
Well i know you will never know yet. Because you already say, you are still attached and kill.

So there is no way to understand the Nibbana yet, end of sufferings.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Microdose
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Microdose »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:05 pm Good afternoon!

Please clarify. I read books about Buddhism, but a lot of incomprehensible.

It is obvious that it is necessary to work on the mind in the process of practice, to control it, all teachers write about this and many sutras (Noble Eightfold Path, awareness, effort, etc.).
Dhammawuddho Thera. Right Thoughts should also be cultivated to avoid unwholesome thoughts that often arise - for example, thoughts of malice, harm, greed. Right Views and Right Thoughts begin to counteract lust, anger, ignorance - the three vicious roots. To keep these three roots in check, you need to constantly observe your own thoughts and know the real motives that underlie our speech and our actions
Dhammawuddho Thera. Knowing any sensible object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point, we have no control, but starting from here, we can decide for ourselves how we should react. This is where the will comes into play and kamma (intentional action) is created.
Dhammawuddho Thera.
Taming the mind. The untrained mind is wild and restless, like an untamed horse. It must be tamed before it can be useful. The Buddha compared the ordinary mind to six animals44 tied together and pulling each other in different directions. They must be tied to a pole to be harnessed and tamed. In the same way, we attach our mind to one single object of meditation instead of allowing the mind to aspire to the objects of the six senses. Over time, it will establish itself on the object of meditation. This is the only way to tame the mind and gain control over it.
But how does this happen if there is no independent "I", the owner, the manager? Who develops the mind?

Also:
Ajahn Brahm Years ago, I gave the "runaway bus" metaphor. It's like you're riding through life on a bus and having pleasant and unpleasant experiences. You think it's your fault; or you think the driver is at fault. “Why doesn’t the driver go to pleasant places and stay there for a long time? Why does he always go where the territory is unpleasant and stay there for a long time? You want to finally find the one who controls this journey called "my life". Why is it that you endure so much pain and suffering? You want to understand where is the driver, the driver of these five aggregates: body, feeling, perception, mentality and consciousness, the driver of you. After a lot of meditating and listening to the Dhamma, you finally get up to where the driver's seat is and it turns out to be empty!
But it is obvious that there are plans for life, they can be built. How does this happen? How does thinking, planning take place, mental constructs, without the "Self", the manager, the driver?

It is also argued that the body is "not ours", not in our power, not under our control, thoughts are not under control. But it is obvious that we control the body and thoughts. We can act with the body, strengthen it. We can remember what we want, focus on the right thought, of our choice. How does it happen then?

Please tell me.

to much information can cause confusion for mind

Really there is no need to worry about these things to much, maybe for some time the mind tries to work out what is reality with the mind and thinking faculty, this can only take one so far and then we need to self awareness , notice patterns of body and mind, use breath to increase self awareness, take care of energy with awareness

It’s nothing more than this but thinking mind want more information
pegembara
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by pegembara »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:10 am
pegembara wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:26 am The reason for aging, sickness, and death is birth. How are you supposed to stop them if you are still being born?
All that is born will die. Arising, arising, ceasing, ceasing. This is to be fully understood with wisdom.
Well i know you will never know yet. Because you already say, you are still attached and kill.

So there is no way to understand the Nibbana yet, end of sufferings.
Good for you. :tongue:
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Lal
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Lal »

Abhidhamma in practice.
Dr. N.K.G. mendis
Chitta, cetasiki and rupa are the conditioned dhammas. They arise due to conditions and disappear when the conditions cease to support them
What does it mean? Can anyone provide examples? What are the conditions?
Citta (with cetasika) arise when a sensory object (ārammana) comes to the mind via five physical senses or the mind itself (with dhammā, with a long "a").
- If the mind gets attached to that ārammana it starts generating abhisankhara with avijja: "avijja paccaya sankhara." That is the beginning of Paticca Samuppada.
- That Paticca Samuppada process can lead to rebirths (rebirths or jāti), with bodies made of rupa (which ALWAYS end up in old age and death, i.e., suffering).
-That is the essence of Paticca Samuppada. The Buddha taught that Paticca Samuppada is the same as Buddha Dhamma.

To summarize: Avijja is the root cause, and generating abhisaṅkhāra (by attaching to sensory attractions (ārammana) is the condition.
P.S. Abhisaṅkhāra are one's thoughts, speech, and actions with greed, anger, and ignorance (of the Noble Truths or Paticca Samuppada).

For an introduction, see "Paticca Samuppāda – From Mind to Matter" :viewtopic.php?p=541269#p541269
- Followup posts there provide more information.
Also, see "Dhamma – Different Meanings Depending on the Context" for the difference between Dhamma and dhammā, with a long "a" :viewtopic.php?p=707371#p707371
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